wing chun's core

[Steeeve]

Whos Dave Ross

[anerlich]

Whos Dave Ross

lkfmdc.

HW108 has a secret crush on him.

[anerlich]

Anerlich: your imperative vs. declarative self-talk idea is a useful one for people who self-talk during combat. I propose, though, that not everyone self-talks, nor is it needed to be successful in athletic endeavors.

Fair point.

If you don't self talk, how then do you manifest intent? Just semantics, or something else?

[anerlich]

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Blinfold chi sau is a nice demo gimmick IMO. One can still let the mind runaway with you even when you are blindfolded.

joy chaudhuri

Joy is correct.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Fair point.

If you don't self talk, how then do you manifest intent? Just semantics, or something else?

I'm a big fan of zombies.

Imagine you're at a party with a drink in hand. You step out onto the patio and slip on a patch of ice, but catch your balance and stay standing, drink unspilled.

There's no need to self-talk through that situation; in fact, things happen so fast that we only realize what's happened after it's over, yet if we're in good health we realize it while remaining standing, courtesy of our subscious mind - our Zombie mind.

Have you ever tried capitalizing on that? One way would be to train specific situations until they become subscious. I think most MAs do that in some way or another. Where you place the emphasis within the situation will determine what your zombie learns, though. Training specific moves into subconsciousness is different than training specific mindsets into subconsciousness.

A Chen master has this great simile relating to what he trains the zombie for (I'm paraphrasing):
Mastery of Martial Arts is like play-fighting with a child. No matter what the child does, you don't feel threatened, and you can deal with whatever they throw at you subconsciously. You don't have to think about doing this move or that move. There's no concentration, no self talk needed.

Back to the self-talk: if it's being used, then may I suggest moving along the imperative line from "technique" to "target" and eventually to "result."

Get it to hit by itself! Train that Zombie!

[Kansuke]

lkfmdc.

HW108 has a secret crush on him.

A glorified crush.

[Ali. R]

This is really hard to do for most, but it’s a less stressful activity then being shallow and full of tension; this is not really pointed to anyone just something to think about…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lyZd0JZCK0


Ali Rahim.

[Hardwork108]

Whos Dave Ross

A glorified nobody!

[Hardwork108]

Hendrik, I know that is what you believe but all we need to do is look at how athletic development really works -- by looking at top-level athletes in any field. Skill in anything comes from lots of deliberate practice (the 10,000 hour rule), from doing that skill over and over again. There is not some "silence" or "state" that once achieved (without the skill building) will provide us with skill. Instead, that "silence" or"state" is a consequence of developing the skill (you practice the skill so much you no longer need give it conscious focus). This is nothing revolutionary, we all do this in our lives -- how many of us have "blanked out" while driving and only realized it when we have reached our destination? We're able to do that because we have driven so much, practiced that skill so often, that it has been internalized (unconsciously competent): we can do it without thinking (beyond thought). Though we may do that when driving or when performing some other skill, that "state" doesn't "transfer" outside the performance of that skill since it is a of that skill's development.

I don't believe for one minute that Hendrik is saying that there is no need for skill building. Obtaining the "silence" and skill building go hand in hand.

I believe that the "silence" in question goes far deeper and does indeed transfer to one's general life. You just become more aware generally; your mind is always calm and you may notice things that others miss; you do not let your emotions run away with you, and so on.

Using your driving example, imagine that the driver is in automatic mode and is driving his car. He does not think he just acts accordingly. Suddenly another car cuts in his way and he brakes automatically and avoids a serious accident. According to your understanding of this subject area, once the driver avoids the accident and stops his car, he will be "off" his automatic mode. He will feel anger, fear, or even shock. He may swear at the other driver or he may get out of his car and hit the other party.

In my definition of silence, he will not have any of the above emotions, nor reactions. He will just "be". That is a difficult one to understand for people who are not familiar with the various "qualities" that internal training aims to achieve, and it is definitely deeper than, "lets repeat an action until it becomes second nature" which is a concept that even some children may be aware of.

HW108

[Hendrik]

Silence is not a belive, Silence is the state when one face the reality independent of belive, mental bias, fix/rigid set up, mind box of " it got to be this way", and "I cant".


Acceptance is silence in action. Silence is acceptance is stillness.

Thus, the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit needs both " comes accept..." and "using silence to lead action" to make it complete.



Application is the dynamic of the energy, application without energy based is just fantasy.

"body" is the stillness of energy, stillness without application is useless.





Silence = I can = a state. and to get to I can just drop I can't, to get to silence just drop the thoughts and all those theories and believe. That is reality.

No one can convince one to get to I can and flow without the approval of others theory if one decide to not drop the I cant and stuck and always needs others approval.

[t_niehoff]

I don't believe for one minute that Hendrik is saying that there is no need for skill building. Obtaining the "silence" and skill building go hand in hand.

I believe that the "silence" in question goes far deeper and does indeed transfer to one's general life. You just become more aware generally; your mind is always calm and you may notice things that others miss; you do not let your emotions run away with you, and so on.

Using your driving example, imagine that the driver is in automatic mode and is driving his car. He does not think he just acts accordingly. Suddenly another car cuts in his way and he brakes automatically and avoids a serious accident. According to your understanding of this subject area, once the driver avoids the accident and stops his car, he will be "off" his automatic mode. He will feel anger, fear, or even shock. He may swear at the other driver or he may get out of his car and hit the other party.

Go back to the driving example, here is a skill (driving) that many people have to the point of unconscious competence, where we have "silence" to the extent of being able to "blank out", right? Yet, does this state "transfer" to other parts of our life as you believe? Can we now, with this "silence" we're able to achieve through driving, consequently make us "more aware," or "more calm" in other parts of our life? Does that mean we can "transfer" that "state" to fighting, to surfing, to etc.? Of course not. And that's because that "state" isn't something apart from the skill itself. It is only that the skill being performed has become so internalized as to be second nature, so that we no longer need to give the performance of the skill conscious thought. It's not some independent state.

[Hardwork108]

Go back to the driving example, here is a skill (driving) that many people have to the point of unconscious competence, where we have "silence" to the extent of being able to "blank out", right? Yet, does this state "transfer" to other parts of our life as you believe? Can we now, with this "silence" we're able to achieve through driving, consequently make us "more aware," or "more calm" in other parts of our life? Does that mean we can "transfer" that "state" to fighting, to surfing, to etc.? Of course not. And that's because that "state" isn't something apart from the skill itself. It is only that the skill being performed has become so internalized as to be second nature, so that we no longer need to give the performance of the skill conscious thought. It's not some independent state.

I did not say it was easy. However, as I understand it, transferring this calmness to general life is one of the "later" goals. Hence, the meditative practices common in many TCMAs, specially those that emphasize the Internal approach.

It is obvious that the old masters of kung fu knew about the relevance of learning and memorizing motor skills through repetition yet they went further. and deeper!

Why? Why is this methodology (in varying ways) followed in different TCMAs and for what seems to be a long time? Enquiring minds will investigate, closed minds will call it fantasy.

Like Hendrik implies, you need to do it to understand it. That is, "taste the orange" rather than read about it (or talk about its taste).


HW108

[Hendrik]

I did not say it was easy. However, as I understand it, transferring this calmness to general life is one of the "later" goals. Hence, the meditative practices common in many TCMAs, specially those that emphasize the Internal approach.---


This silence is the base of human living. Everyone's activity is based on it. It is just some knows some dont.

To be able to switch position to make Silence the Boss and mind the servant is the ultimate. Where all human is reacting with the mind is the boss and Silence the servant.

meditative is just a tool before the switch, silence is everywhere in dynamic or stillness condition.





It is obvious that the old masters of kung fu knew about the relevance of learning and memorizing motor skills through repetition yet they went further. and deeper! ---------


Nothing to do with old masters of Kung fu, it is a part of human that being forgoten similar to after 10000 years of using bluetooth earphone totally forget it is not the bluetooth the master the ear is the master.



Why? Why is this methodology (in varying ways) followed in different TCMAs and for what seems to be a long time? Enquiring minds will investigate, closed minds will call it fantasy. ------

closed mind means insist on mind is the master. reason rule over everything. and never like to face, when that close mind is doze off, everything -- reasoning....etc is gone. if one doesnt wake up the world is over.

As for silence, doesnt matter awake or doze off, it is always there. timeless. and independent on one's education or habit.




Like Hendrik implies, you need to do it to understand it. That is, "taste the orange" rather than read about it (or talk about its taste). ------

One cant undertand Silence. because MIND is a subset of Silence. One can only KNOW because KNow itself is Silence. But KNOW is not that discrimination function which differentiate a man or a woman when seeing one. that is discriminating mind function. Drop the mind, silence surface that simple. The difficulties is how to drop the mind.

Similar to after 1000000 years implant with BlueTooth earphone forget totally on what is one's Own ear.



In action, silence is acceptance without resistance. and only with acceptance one can be effortless. a typical example is if your wife asks you to clean the restroom. as soon as one accept it naturally, one still needs to clean the restroom, doing all the work. however, that is very different then resist it, trying to reason with one's mind, then doing it without the soul but forcefully repeat a cleaning routine. just repeating a job without life.



Thus, when facing an opponents, ok with whatever the opponents' is coming at one and response it naturally with life instead of repeating a training routine. and in fact due to one cant step on the same water twice, every act is always different.

is very different that filling one's mind will all kind of prediction, confident, not confident, over confident...... not approval for one's opps resisting opponents nice attack......etc. with losing focus due to the mind is all over the place with that repeating routine.

Sure those who practice the routine can handle the situation better then those who doesnt.

However, silence here doesnt say one doesnt need to know the routine. in fact it is about putting LIFE in that routine after knowing the routine.

and in some case, you know you dont even need the full routine or you need a different routine or just totally ignore it, instead of similar to an animal which only good at one thing and force that one thing all the time similar to using a hammer to cut a wire because your mind resist to know.

If there is such things as MMA, then Silence is that master to know when to use what optimally.

[t_niehoff]

I did not say it was easy. However, as I understand it, transferring this calmness to general life is one of the "later" goals. Hence, the meditative practices common in many TCMAs, specially those that emphasize the Internal approach.

It has nothing to do with "easy" or "difficult" -- rather it has to do with that "silence" is simply a stage in the skill development process. It is specific to that skill. It doesn't "transfer" because it can't.

It is obvious that the old masters of kung fu knew about the relevance of learning and memorizing motor skills through repetition yet they went further. and deeper!

Why? Why is this methodology (in varying ways) followed in different TCMAs and for what seems to be a long time? Enquiring minds will investigate, closed minds will call it fantasy.

I don't think it is obvious that "the old masters of kung fu" knew a great deal about how human beings really learn and develop psycho-motor skills. The TMA training model is, in fact, a very poor way to learn and develop psycho-motor (fighting) skills (as evidenced by the fact that it produces very, very few people with high level skills).

You also assume that there is something "further" and "deeper". Well, if that is true, why not look to people who have achieved the highest levels of DEMONSTRABLE fighting skills or people who have achieved the highest levels of athletic excellence to see? Isn't it those people, if anyone, who would have "gone further"?

Like Hendrik implies, you need to do it to understand it. That is, "taste the orange" rather than read about it (or talk about its taste).
HW108

That's unsound reasoning. We don't need to "understand" something to see it working or see its existence. Nor do you know (another assumption) that Hendrik can "do" it.

The plain and simple fact is that skill is by its very nature demonstrable. If some attribute comes from a skill and is "transferred" into other aspects, we should expect to see EVIDENCE of that (wouldn't all great athletes, since they all have unconscious competence, and hence "silence") be more calm, focused, etc. in other aspects of their lives?

[anerlich]

and in some case, you know you dont even need the full routine or you need a different routine or just totally ignore it, instead of similar to an animal which only good at one thing and force that one thing all the time similar to using a hammer to cut a wire because your mind resist to know.

Those cases would only be the ones which are predictable and non-threatening. People that actually work in potentially deadly situations suggest you have an immediate action that works on a majority of situations. Otherwise you may not be alive long enough to seek after enlightenment or silence. More chance of living with an IA, more chance of dying with Silence. You can take option B, it's a free world.

The Old Masters' techniques, according to the "experts" here, have been steadily forgotten since the 1850's and their skills are rare and becoming rarer.

When it came to teaching and education, the "Old Masters" and their "top students" were mainfest failures who couldn't and shouldn't get a gig at a dog training school, if you guys are to be believed.