wing chun's core

[anerlich]

your posts tell me you are a person who want control and approval.

As do yours, Hendrik.

[Ali. R]

My intention is to bring up what is a fact in the history. Since this is United State of America the second millenium.

As for your speculation, I totally accept your way of thinking and let go because it have nothing to do with what I am posting or silence.

I can understand where you are coming from but I’m a man who don’t desirer power, so therefore I have nothing to hide and need nothing to gain, not indulging in labels of justification…

I prefer to serve then lead so I wouldn’t consistently have to change history (lie)…


Ali Rahim.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I agree with drilling specific situations as you describe. I would qualify that by suggesting maximum benefit will come from drilling the most likely situations to confront one, and the reaction to those situations which are most likely to succeed. Like you say, you want your Zombie to learn stuff that's actually has a chance of being applicable.

I get the feeling the Chen master suggests when sparring or rolling with new guys; I'm not sure he, you, I, Hendrik, HW108 or anyone else could seriously be able to carry it through into a sudden criminal confrontation involving extreme violence. I definitely would not regard that as a good idea.

I'll see if I can find the quote and context - it's in a KFM from a few years back.

When I first started Wing Chun, even later in some of the IMAs I was learning, the progression of skill development started with a bit of breathing and a bit of focus, followed by solo technique work. We then did target work and partner drills, starting with no resistance and moving up towards full resistance. I've also experienced the flip side of this process: starting with full partner drill resistance and working my way towards the solo drills.

I find the latter method to be better at practically training the zombie and developing effective, results-based self talk. A noob off the street could get good real quick like this. They can fight, just don't ask them to do it with any particular style. The former method tends to program secondary imperatives before primary ones, making the practitioners look more capable than they are for a long time (and in some cases, forever - if the student never advances to the full resistance level, they're left with nothing but a stylish zombie.)

In my training, my goal is to zombify general concepts first, then techniques. I've talked about man sao/wu sao before along these same lines. If someone views man sao and wu sao as techniques to be performed, then they're looking at the finger, or the secondary imperatives. If you can ingrain them as ideas - man sao being the probing idea of "what's happening?" and Wu Sao being the shielding idea of "don't get damaged," then the techniques that the ideas were originally married to become mere rafts across the water for the ideas themselves.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Come accept goes return means totally effortless or no resistance."


***TOTAL NONSENSE.

"Accept what comes" does not mean TOTAL NON-RESISTANCE. It means that you use your natural forward force (without extra strain) to intercept his force and immediately determine - through the contact reflexes developed through chi sao and related drills - WHAT YOU SHOULD DO against the force coming in from your opponent: oppose it directly, redirect it, use footwork in conjunction with your arms/hands in order to dissipate or redirect his force, not use footwork to do the same (because footwork is unnecessary), etc.

[Steeeve]

lkfmdc.

HW108 has a secret crush on him.

Ok the Lama King of NY....he done good article by the way...a senior of GM Chan tai san
Does he train WC too

[anerlich]

Ok the Lama King of NY....he done good article by the way...a senior of GM Chan tai san
Does he train WC too

I don't think so, no.

[t_niehoff]

your posts tell me you are a person who want control and approval. I can sure accept that with ease in the silence of peace.

And your posts tell me that you are a person who cannot offer any evidence in support of your views.

Hendrik, I don't want control or approval, but what I do want is for people to be intellectually honest and to be able to provide both solid evidence and sound reasoning in support of their views. After all, how can we separate the nonsense from the truth except by looking to the proof provided by solid evidence and sound reasoning? Do you expect people to simply take your word for it?

[Hendrik]

And your posts tell me that you are a person who cannot offer any evidence in support of your views.

Hendrik, I don't want control or approval, but what I do want is for people to be intellectually honest and to be able to provide both solid evidence and sound reasoning in support of their views. After all, how can we separate the nonsense from the truth except by looking to the proof provided by solid evidence and sound reasoning? Do you expect people to simply take your word for it?

I am sharing.

It is up to others to take it or leave it.

BTW. Silence got nothing to do with my view. similar to Sun got nothing to do with my view.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

This 56 minute lecture about the psychology of intuition by psychologist Daniel Kahneman, winner of the 2002 Nobel Prize in Economics, touches on precisely the subject being discussed here. If you have an hour to watch it and are interested in the topics in this thread, then watch this lecture. I particularly like this quote of his: "[Intuitive thinking] feels like something that happens to us; it doesn't feel like something we do."

That's the best description I've heard of what it feels like to fight.

Just like slipping and catching our balance feels like something that happens rather than something we do, combat can (and in my opinion, should) feel like something that happens rather than something we're doing.

It's in this sense that I was saying "it's possible to fight successfully without self-talk."

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I found the article with the "Chen Master's quote". Turns out it was an article on Chen Xiao Wang, but it wasn't the master's quote at all. It was the author's - a certain C.P. Ong.

Chen Xiao Wang's Principle of Movements

Dantien is at the heart of the body's motion

Once a part moves, the whole body moves

Joint by joint, the energy threads through

Thus, the force transmits unimpeded in one action.

... The phrases in Chen Xiao Wang's Principle of Movements convey a state of the body to be maintained during a practitioner's motion. If this state is compromised, it exposes a weakness in the body that can be exploited.... The power of this gong is referred to as Gong Li. If the level of the gong achieved is high enough, it is said that you have Gong Fu (the skills you have trained so hard for.)

...To see this point, think of yourself handling a young child. You do not consider yourself challenged in any way by the child, so your guard is always intact. You can dispose of whatever the little kid throws at you. In this sense, your Gongli, limited as it is, is superior to that of the child's. Chen Xiao Wang's Gongli far exceeds that of his students.

Something I forgot to mention about zombies (should be evident though): Zombies are slow learners. They need lots and lots and lots of practice.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Whether you're practicing a sport form of Wing Chun or a spiritual one, I'd say that this idea of training one's "intuitive thinking" is a key, or core, concept. Of course, how you train this will depend on what you're doing.

How do you train your intuitive thinking? Forms, Drills, Sparring, Meditation, something else?

[t_niehoff]

I am sharing.

It is up to others to take it or leave it.

Yes, you are "sharing", and I am pointing out that what you are sharing is supported by neither evience or reason, and is contrary to what we do know from evidence and reason.

BTW. Silence got nothing to do with my view. similar to Sun got nothing to do with my view.

This is where you are being intellectually dishonest -- "silence" (or, more accurately, your view of "silence") is the substance of what you are"sharing." So it has everything to do with your view. You are now trying to put your view forward as fact (like the Sun is a fact) when it is not a factbut rather your opinion which isnot supported by either evidence or reason.

[t_niehoff]

Whether you're practicing a sport form of Wing Chun or a spiritual one, I'd say that this idea of training one's "intuitive thinking" is a key, or core, concept. Of course, how you train this will depend on what you're doing.

How do you train your intuitive thinking? Forms, Drills, Sparring, Meditation, something else?

Skill is learned and developed via a natural mechanism or process. We can look at all good athletes and see how they developed their skill to see that process at work. Scientists have recognized and studied that process. There is a lot of research that has been done and published on it. Hendrik and others take a view that is contrary to that process. Skill doesn't come from developing your "intuitive thinking." Skill comes from practice, and the right kind of practice.

As fighting is an open skill (open skills require continual adaptation since the environment changes), forms are a really poor way of learning or developing open skills (since you can't learn to adapt by doing fixed things). To develop open skills you need to repeatedly practice the task under the target conditions (intensity, etc.). Look at what all good athletes do (and it's not forms or meditation) to develop.

[Wayfaring]

As fighting is an open skill (open skills require continual adaptation since the environment changes), forms are a really poor way of learning or developing open skills (since you can't learn to adapt by doing fixed things). To develop open skills you need to repeatedly practice the task under the target conditions (intensity, etc.). Look at what all good athletes do (and it's not forms or meditation) to develop.

Good to see you back on here, T.

[anerlich]

Good to see you back on here, T.

Never thought I'd say it, but yeah, I agree.