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Thread: attention circle walkers

  1. #61
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    Thanks guys for the info!

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by dimethylsea View Post
    Lee...
    Alternately if you didn't want to go to Boston you could always go visit Dale's teacher Dr. Painter. I'm sure he or some of the senior students there would be able to show you what walking in circles is good for. They are in Texas like you.

    Is centerline theory and angling off it a part of your martial arts practice? This is a serious question..
    If you practice angling off the main vector of an opponent's movement then this clip by Kumar Frantzis might be edifying..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na5-yjetsIM

    The stuff he is talking about is pretty much axiomatic for all bagua people (I don't know of any bagua people who would disagree with what he is saying).
    Most things that the circle walk trains COULD be trained by practicing linear footwork. I spent alot of time with my first bagua teacher stepping up and down the floor. Jump step, full step. Pivot. Jump. Turn-around. Repeat ad nauseum.
    But "burning in" the circular patterns of walking makes the feet reflexively circular in their motion.

    Rootedness, balance, power in the step, alignment between the hips and the head while in motion.. all that stuff is trained in the circle walk. But if we didn't do it in circular patterns we wouldn't have all these things while moving in circular trajectories.

    That's what I meant by "circle walking alot makes you better at circle walking".
    This makes sense. It is a training aid of sorts that helps incorperate ones footwork to technique? I know absolutely nothing of Bagua, so have absolutely no idea how that would work. If I did then it would make far more sense I think.
    Thanks for the explanation. Most people tend to do one liners that make absolutely no sense at all. I wasn't really knocking it, but simply wanted to understand why one would walk in endless circles. I imagine that if someone were watching me over the fence while doing my own training forms it would bring up question marks.

    LCP

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    This makes sense. It is a training aid of sorts that helps incorperate ones footwork to technique? I know absolutely nothing of Bagua, so have absolutely no idea how that would work. If I did then it would make far more sense I think.
    Thanks for the explanation. Most people tend to do one liners that make absolutely no sense at all. I wasn't really knocking it, but simply wanted to understand why one would walk in endless circles. I imagine that if someone were watching me over the fence while doing my own training forms it would bring up question marks.

    LCP

    LCP,
    That's pretty much exactly it.
    If you look at many kinds of gungfu they will train a static posture or stance as a foundation practice. Xingyi doing San Ti, or "holding Pi Quan" as they call it. When I first learned bagua I got the "8 basic stances" (bow, horse, kneeling, cat, one-leg, sweep, twisted, guard).
    Bagua circle walking is pretty much a stance-holding practice (with most of those benefits) while moving the feet.
    And then many kinds of gungfu will do "single movement" exercise. Doing lots of punches or arm movements. Taiji doing Cloud Hands is an example. Xingyi doing standing Beng Quan or any of the Five Elements. I'm sure other kinds of gungfu do similar things (I've seen videos) but I don't know enough about them to say anything. If you have a background in these other kinds of gungfu (I don't know your background sorry) you may be able to agree with this.
    For bagua circle walking the "single movement" exercise equivalent is in the DIRECTION CHANGE. I.e. when the bagua person changes from clockwise to counterclockwise or vice versa. That change of direction is when the lead hand changes (from left lead to right lead or vice versa) and there is some sort of change of direction in which way the feet are moving.
    Another thing about the direction change is that it involves kou bu and bai bu stepping usually. This is a hooking in (kou) or swinging out (bai) step. In fact the stepping around the circle is also kou bu and bai bu. These are the ways to attack with the feet.
    This is a clip from He Jinbao, a very skillful teacher of Yin style bagua.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30heDQrSh5M
    Notice how he is circling into his student to throw him? It may look linear to someone who has never seen the circle walk (because the circle is so small), but in Mr. He's mind and body he is walking the circle.. just like he has done for countless hours of his gungfu practice.
    It is true people walk the circle as meditation or to build qi.. but circle walking is for fighting. Indeed to the bagua person.. circle walking IS fighting. The second the fight starts.. you are moving the feet in circles.
    "The first stage is to get the Gang( hard, solid power). every movement should be done with full power and in hard way, also need to get the twisting and wrapping power, whole body's tendon and bones need to be stretched to get the Gang( hard) power. "
    -Bi Tianzou -

  4. #64
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    I can understand that. I have black belts in Jap Jujitsu and it is also a circular system. You move in circles both body and in the application of techniques. I also do wing chun, which involves angles, but not direct circles. I do a particular foot work form or as some other call it, drills, where I walk in particular angles as I move about. Amounts to the same thing I guess. It tends to make your movements feel more natural to you.

    LCP

  5. #65
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    arent youa wing chun guy lee chang?

    i believe on style of win chun called fut sao has circle walking from bagua in it as well

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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    I can understand that. I have black belts in Jap Jujitsu and it is also a circular system. You move in circles both body and in the application of techniques. I also do wing chun, which involves angles, but not direct circles. I do a particular foot work form or as some other call it, drills, where I walk in particular angles as I move about. Amounts to the same thing I guess. It tends to make your movements feel more natural to you.

    LCP
    Yep. Most good arts have circles in them. The ones that rely on sticking, contact and joint controls tend to have more. Bagua just tries to make circles it's specialty. And our way of doing that is to make everything circular "from the ground up" (i.e. by walking the circle).
    "The first stage is to get the Gang( hard, solid power). every movement should be done with full power and in hard way, also need to get the twisting and wrapping power, whole body's tendon and bones need to be stretched to get the Gang( hard) power. "
    -Bi Tianzou -

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    I can understand that. I have black belts in Jap Jujitsu and it is also a circular system. You move in circles both body and in the application of techniques. I also do wing chun, which involves angles, but not direct circles. I do a particular foot work form or as some other call it, drills, where I walk in particular angles as I move about. Amounts to the same thing I guess. It tends to make your movements feel more natural to you.

    LCP
    Sorry, I've learned some JJS, Kung Fu, Taiji, Qigong, Zhan Zhuang, and in my experience, there's nothing that has come close to Bagua yet.

    Bagua builds the body, strengthens it in ways I have not seen in other arts. You are walking the circle, yes, but it's more than that. The arms are "twisting like wringing a dish rag" while extending them forward. Spine remains erect while scapula presses forward. Your waist is twisting like wringing a dish rag, legs are doing proper bai/kou and proper stepping, all this stuff and more combined while remaining relaxed. Dis krap is very demanding both mentally and physically and builds the body nicely. As the Chinese say, you have to eat bitter to taste sweet. Bagua training is very bitter. In Shanghai there are many, many Taiji players, less but still many Xingyi players, not so many Bagua players. It's demanding and few people want to continue with it.

    My 2 cents.

  8. #68
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    woliveri - which branch of bagua do u work in?

    really, when u get deep into either taiji or xingyi, you can flush out the same basic principals and exercises. some teachers may focus on certain aspects rather than others. but, having experience in all 3 of these arts, i have found many commons, and many parts that are stressed to different degrees.

    for the most part, single palm change, is basically the verticle circle of pi quan on a horizontal circle. u know splitting palm can be done on more or less a horizontal circle in application at least. and single palm change can be done on a line as well.

    really, all the "internal" arts have the same base, but what they specify in seems to create what we call as a "style."

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by woliveri View Post
    Sorry, I've learned some JJS, Kung Fu, Taiji, Qigong, Zhan Zhuang, and in my experience, there's nothing that has come close to Bagua yet. .

    Actually bro LCP and I were just having a "sharing is caring" communication moment.

    He wanted to know what good circle walking was.. and nobody else was willing to figure out how to explain it in terms he was familiar with.

    "The first stage is to get the Gang( hard, solid power). every movement should be done with full power and in hard way, also need to get the twisting and wrapping power, whole body's tendon and bones need to be stretched to get the Gang( hard) power. "
    -Bi Tianzou -

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTS View Post
    woliveri - which branch of bagua do u work in?

    really, when u get deep into either taiji or xingyi, you can flush out the same basic principals and exercises. some teachers may focus on certain aspects rather than others. but, having experience in all 3 of these arts, i have found many commons, and many parts that are stressed to different degrees.

    for the most part, single palm change, is basically the verticle circle of pi quan on a horizontal circle. u know splitting palm can be done on more or less a horizontal circle in application at least. and single palm change can be done on a line as well.

    really, all the "internal" arts have the same base, but what they specify in seems to create what we call as a "style."
    Hi KTS, I am from the Wang ZhuangFei lineage out of Shanghai China.
    Dong Haichuan, Yin Fu, Gong Baotian, Wang Zhuangfei. My teacher is Ming Qianbo who's teacher was a student of Wang Zhuangfei (don't have his name with me right now). Ming Qianbo also learned from Wang Hanzhi (Wang Zhuangfei's son) for a short period and others after Ming Shifu's teacher's untimely death from a construction accident.

    While I agree with you that all three main internal arts carry the same or similar principles, I disagree that they are the same in training methodologies. A student might spend 10 years in Taiji (depending on style) to maybe, possibly, reach the level of training of 1 year of Bagua. At least from my perspective based on the Taiji I've studied and the Bagua I now practice. The practice of circle walking is just very demanding and I have not seen that level of training in the other arts.

    Perhaps I haven't run into the right Taiji guys. Don't know but I've been through Yang, Chen, Wu, and Sun and haven't experienced near the intensity of Bagua. In fact, almost none of the Taiji classes I've been through even practice Zhan Zhuang which I consider a very core and essential practice to Taiji.

    I haven't trained in Xingyi so can't comment on that so much, just to say my teacher learned Taiji and Xingyi before learning bagua and he has no problem expressing that bagua is by far the best he's come across.

    Best,

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by dimethylsea View Post
    Actually bro LCP and I were just having a "sharing is caring" communication moment.

    He wanted to know what good circle walking was.. and nobody else was willing to figure out how to explain it in terms he was familiar with.

    Sorry, I got off on a tangent.

  12. #72
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    oh, nono, i know the training methods are different. i meant that many goals are common. and the basic principals that shape the actual training methods are generally the same.

    all of the arts do stress a different strategy though. but fundamentally, all need t have commonalities like precise levels of balance, efficient structure, reduced tension in movements, etc.

    i am by no means an expert i would have to say, but over the last 5+ years it seems that all of the "internal" arts share mechanical efficiency and so on.

    but how that is used may differ, of course. xing yi which i am most versed in, will like to used slight changes of direction and acute angles while maintining a heavy(yet agile) immovable posture. bagua is more spherical as is taiji in relation to dealing with force and using it.

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