White Tiger Kung Fu ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I love Doo Wai's get up, very kung fuish !

[chusauli]

I don't know about Doo Wai, but what little I have seen in White Tiger, it is Bak Mei. I only read about Doo Wai in IKF years ago and saw his system on youtube. From the grapevine, I heard his training is in Bak Mei.

One of my students attended a school and learned a set - it was Jik Bo Kuen, albeit modified, but still Bak Mei's first set.

Yau Kung Mun is also an offshoot of Bak Mei, as is the Futshan branch of Bak Mei. They're very reputable.

If you like the system and it has merit, and you train hard in it, its fine. All people have learned a martial arts system that was created by someone... the question is if it is any use in self defense or not, has health benefits (i.e. you train it and you get fit), and its a hobby you enjoy, and you develop a comraderie and friendships.

For fighting, these days, a gun or knife and good conditioning with a good all round system is needed. Mostly, these days, art is being taught is these schools.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't know about Doo Wai, but what little I have seen in White Tiger, it is Bak Mei. I only read about Doo Wai in IKF years ago and saw his system on youtube. From the grapevine, I heard his training is in Bak Mei.

One of my students attended a school and learned a set - it was Jik Bo Kuen, albeit modified, but still Bak Mei's first set.

Yau Kung Mun is also an offshoot of Bak Mei, as is the Futshan branch of Bak Mei. They're very reputable.

If you like the system and it has merit, and you train hard in it, its fine. All people have learned a martial arts system that was created by someone... the question is if it is any use in self defense or not, has health benefits (i.e. you train it and you get fit), and its a hobby you enjoy, and you develop a comraderie and friendships.

For fighting, these days, a gun or knife and good conditioning with a good all round system is needed. Mostly, these days, art is being taught is these schools.

There is NOTHING wrong with taking a system, making it your own and calling it whatever you like.
That IS how MA are created.
It's just when you try to "garnish" it with historical trappings that can't be proven, that you cross that line of someone who has created a legit, personal system of MA and someone trying to pass off A as B to make others think that you have something "special".

[taai gihk yahn]

the real problem is when you perform for all the world to see in a way that CLEARLY demonstrates a lack of proper principles, both of the type of style in question (e.g. - southern short-hand "internal") and for MA movement in general, and when called on it, attribute the qualities shown to being unique (pathognomic, even) to the style in question!

the other problem is when you hold forth as a claim to legitimacy the fact that you have a lot of Hollywood stars as students, as if their decision making process is so unparalleled that for them to study w/you, you MUST be good...

of course, creating your own forum to have conversations w/yourself under multiple account names is a whole other thing...

[David Jamieson]

the real problem is that it is utter shyte with no martial value that has never stepped up and proven itself in a proper sense like so many other styles.

stolen bak mei called something else and performed poorly is no longer bak mei, it is now shyte.

tasty vinegar!

*edit*

Oh, I see I have merely worded my vitriol differently from TYG.

[taai gihk yahn]

Or is it just a figment of someone's imagination?
HW108

this is a typical example of the style's Founder demonstrating; draw your own conclusions...

here is some of their so-called "healing" for low-back pain, which is just absurdly ridiculous and quite frankly he should be ashamed of himself for posting it, because there are several conditions that cause low back pain, that if you did what he advocates, you'd run a serious risk of exacerbating your condition significantly! of course, he manages to qualify that the exercises alone won't cure you, you have to use the dit da jow he sells for full effect (also silly, as jow cannot cure things like spinal stenosis, spondylolisthesis or disc extrusion, lol, all of which cause "low back pain"); and he cites Dr. Harut as one "medical authority" who endorses him - notwithstanding that Dr. Harout is a Family Practice physician (in Lebannon, btw), which as a subspecialty is essentially clueless regarding diagnosis and treatment of low back pain; quackery all around...

[Hardwork108]

the real problem is when you perform for all the world to see in a way that CLEARLY demonstrates a lack of proper principles, both of the type of style in question (e.g. - southern short-hand "internal") and for MA movement in general, and when called on it, attribute the qualities shown to being unique (pathognomic, even) to the style in question!

the other problem is when you hold forth as a claim to legitimacy the fact that you have a lot of Hollywood stars as students, as if their decision making process is so unparalleled that for them to study w/you, you MUST be good...

of course, creating your own forum to have conversations w/yourself under multiple account names is a whole other thing...

Thank you for the links.

They looked "interesting". I have got absolutely no experience of Pak Mei. I only know that some of their Internal principles are similar to Chow Gar. It would be interesting to read Chusauli's opinion of the above links, albeit diplomatically, which is understandable.

For me the form was performed rather strangely. Does my opinion reflect my lack of experience of Pak Mei or is there more?

And the back pain remedy?

I know that proper Chow Gar training will heal even some of the more serious back problems, but again, that is what I am familiar with. What about this "White Tiger" methodology?

Also, I seem to remember that Pak Mei itself was somewhere referred to as a "Forbidden Style". Anyone else here has heard this as well?


HW108

[taai gihk yahn]

Thank you for the links.

They looked "interesting". I have got absolutely no experience of Pak Mei. I only know that some of their Internal principles are similar to Chow Gar. It would be interesting to read Chusauli's opinion of the above links, albeit diplomatically, which is understandable.

For me the form was performed rather strangely. Does my opinion reflect my lack of experience of Pak Mei or is there more?

And the back pain remedy?

I know that proper Chow Gar training will heal even some of the more serious back problems, but again, that is what I am familiar with. What about this "White Tiger" methodology?

Also, I seem to remember that Pak Mei itself was somewhere referred to as a "Forbidden Style". Anyone else here has heard this as well?


HW108

well, suffice to say, I have a rather "non-diplomatic" perspective; that said, bearing in mind that BFP claims minimal (if any) actual relationship to BMP, claiming instead that they are a secret 700 yr. + lineage (so secret, that no documentation at all exists of their existence aside from what they themselves provide); of course, the fact that some of their forms follow pretty much the same sequence as several BMP forms doesn't seem to matter to them too much; that, and if memory serves, Doo Wai was "outed" by a Canadian BMP group that he used to associate with (the details elude me, I believe that there was some evidence provided on the forum to this effect);

that all aside, one simply needs to look at the form, and, if one has had ANY experience in a viable system of BMP, so. mantis, etc., systems which share some core principles despite variations in expression, one can see many things that are missing (root, full-body connectivity, etc.; also, "shoulders up by your ears" is not a key tenet of any TCMA, at least not to my knowledge; nor is "stop the form when you run out of breath"...);

the back pain "remedy" is just absurd - totally irresponsible, demonstrates a PROFOUND lack of understanding re: etiology, diagnosis, treatment, prognosis, etc.; even from a TCM perspective it's lacking significantly;

but again, I lack diplomacy in this regard...

addendum: there is a lot of "forbidden style" silliness surrounding bok mei; whatever, it's more in context of the politics, not the style itself; CTS studied a lot of BMP directly with and through a senior student of Cheung Lai Chung
this is video of him teaching Mike Parella about 20 yrs. ago
here is a vid of him demoing it at a faster speed as part of another demo, starting at about 00:55 to where he puts on the wires and then starting at about 02:15 until he breaks them; just to give you an idea of what it should look like...

[Hardwork108]

well, suffice to say, I have a rather "non-diplomatic" perspective; that said, bearing in mind that BFP claims minimal (if any) actual relationship to BMP, claiming instead that they are a secret 700 yr. + lineage (so secret, that no documentation at all exists of their existence aside from what they themselves provide); of course, the fact that some of their forms follow pretty much the same sequence as several BMP forms doesn't seem to matter to them too much; that, and if memory serves, Doo Wai was "outed" by a Canadian BMP group that he used to associate with (the details elude me, I believe that there was some evidence provided on the forum to this effect);

If your memory is indeed correct, then I guess there is not that much left to discuss about this "lineage" of Pak mei. LOL

that all aside, one simply needs to look at the form, and, if one has had ANY experience in a viable system of BMP, so. mantis, etc., systems which share some core principles despite variations in expression, one can see many things that are missing (root, full-body connectivity, etc.; also, "shoulders up by your ears" is not a key tenet of any TCMA, at least not to my knowledge; nor is "stop the form when you run out of breath"...);

I am kind of going to avoid making critics because I many then be accused of making demeaning and derogatory remarks regarding a "respected sifu". Also, no doubt someone may come here and say that the flaws we perceive are due to the master's age or health, etc.etc.etc.

That is why I would have liked read Chusauli's diplomatic take on this.

the back pain "remedy" is just absurd - totally irresponsible, demonstrates a PROFOUND lack of understanding re: etiology, diagnosis, treatment, prognosis, etc.; even from a TCM perspective it's lacking significantly;

but again, I lack diplomacy in this regard...
addendum: there is a lot of "forbidden style" silliness surrounding bok mei; whatever, it's more in context of the politics, not the style itself; CTS studied a lot of BMP directly with and through a senior student of Cheung Lai Chung
this is video of him teaching Mike Parella about 20 yrs. ago
here is a vid of him demoing it at a faster speed as part of another demo, starting at about 00:55 to where he puts on the wires and then starting at about 02:15 until he breaks them; just to give you an idea of what it should look like...

Thank you for the clips. They were very interesting. It must have been an experience studying under CTS. And yes he (and many other sifus) do their kung fu differently to what was demonstrated in that video clip.

By the way, do you recall the name of the form being taught to Parrella?

[Hardwork108]

Whoops. I just got the name of the form from the clip description on Youtube.

[taai gihk yahn]

If your memory is correct, then I guess there is not that much left to discuss about this "lineage" of Pak mei.

I could be wrong - that was my impression, it was peripheral in my awareness, as I had pretty much written BFP off as re-hashed BMP, didn't really find the need for verification elsewhere; some digging around the forum might yield you some more concrete info though;

I am kind of going to avoid making critics because I many then be accused of making demeaning and derogatory remarks regarding a "respected sifu".

too bad they didn't demo some glorified, knuckle-headed kickboxing, you'd be at liberty to unleash your full polemic!

Also, no doubt someone may come here and say that the flows we perceive are due to the master's age or health, etc.

my understanding was that age is not supposed to be a confounding factor when practicing TCMA, especially one w/"internal" characteristics, and that a master of an internal style ought to be manifesting abundant good health as the result of his practice...I can't believe you didn't know that!

That is why I would have liked read Chusauli's diplomatic take on this.

that would be good, of course (btw, Rob and my sifu are old acquaintances, it turns out; small world!)

Thank you for the clips. They were very interesting. It must have been an experience studying under CTS.

putting it mildly...bearing in mind that a lot of my disaffection for the TCMA party-line is due to that experience - he was about as traditional as you get and he bucked the system not infrequently...

And yes he (and many other sifus) do their kung fu differently to what was demonstrated in that video clip.

he had "it"; when he used to show apps for a technique, he sometimes had to stop and think about them and seem to get lost in his thoughts a bit - our opinion was that he was referencing actual experiences where he used that technique to off someone (and considering that he never told us any of those stories on his own, only after someone we'd meet who knew him from back in the day would tell us, then he'd talk about it...)

By the way, do you recall the name of the form being taught to Parella?

I believe it's sahp jih kyuhn - "cross-pattern fist"; which is a generic name for basic forms in many southern styles...

[Hardwork108]

I could be wrong - that was my impression, it was peripheral in my awareness, as I had pretty much written BFP off as re-hashed BMP, didn't really find the need for verification elsewhere; some digging around the forum might yield you some more concrete info though;

I might dig more if I have the time later, but I guess the videos speak for themselves.

too bad they didn't demo some glorified, knuckle-headed kickboxing, you'd be at liberty to unleash your full polemic!

Lets hope and wait.

my understanding was that age is not supposed to be a confounding factor when practicing TCMA, especially one w/"internal" characteristics, and that a master of an internal style ought to be manifesting abundant good health as the result of his practice...I can't believe you didn't know that!

Of course I know that and I have made references to the long term health benefits of autentic TCMA practice but again I would expect age/health/fitness issue to be brought up to defend the man's not so kung fu-ish performance. And if all of that failed the we migh be presented with a rare condition that he may be suffering from.

that would be good, of course (btw, Rob and my sifu are old acquaintances, it turns out; small world!)

Small world indeed. I am finding that out myself, day by day, in the most peculiar ways.

putting it mildly...bearing in mind that a lot of my disaffection for the TCMA party-line is due to that experience - he was about as traditional as you get and he bucked the system not infrequently...

Did training with TCS create some disaffection on your part, towards the TCMAs? Was it his secrecy regarding certain gongs? Something that Dave Ross has referred to in the past? Or were there other factors? If am I asking too much, then tell me to shut up.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

CTS seems to have been the real deal. A traditionalists that made his art work in combat, apparently too effectively, sometimes. He was also declared a living treasure by China? Am I correct?

he had "it"; when he used to show apps for a technique, he sometimes had to stop and think about them and seem to get lost in his thoughts a bit - our opinion was that he was referencing actual experiences where he used that technique to off someone (and considering that he never told us any of those stories on his own, only after someone we'd meet who knew him from back in the day would tell us, then he'd talk about it...)

Definitely an interesting character and an asset to have as a sifu. However, I guess he was a complicated person as well.

I believe it's sahp jih kyuhn - "cross-pattern fist"; which is a generic name for basic forms in many southern styles...

Yep. It is and thans. Just after I asked you the question I thought that the name might have been posted together with the clip on Youtube, so I checked.

HW108

[chusauli]

All I have to say is that this White Tiger is Doo Wai's system and if people want to learn it, they have to go to the source.

From the links attached, it appears to me to be Bak Mei Pai. As for the Chi Gung, I do not know if it is real or not and can work for the lower back. Bak Mei and Chow Gar, Lung Ying and other southern short hand Hakka fist all have strong similarities.

Secret lineage, they make you wonder what the real truth is...

After researching the history of WCK and of Southern Fist in general, I learned there was a lot of nonsense.

I do not wish to call out any phonies or be the Southern Fist police.

People make their living teaching what they like. If it has value, and a person likes it, all the more power to them. I'll just keep doing what I like.

[taai gihk yahn]

All I have to say is that this White Tiger is Doo Wai's system and if people want to learn it, they have to go to the source.

From the links attached, it appears to me to be Bak Mei Pai. As for the Chi Gung, I do not know if it is real or not and can work for the lower back. Bak Mei and Chow Gar, Lung Ying and other southern short hand Hakka fist all have strong similarities.

Secret lineage, they make you wonder what the real truth is...

After researching the history of WCK and of Southern Fist in general, I learned there was a lot of nonsense.

I do not wish to call out any phonies or be the Southern Fist police.

People make their living teaching what they like. If it has value, and a person likes it, all the more power to them. I'll just keep doing what I like.

you'll make more BFP friends than I will, Robert...

as for the low back stuff - I should say that I don't have an issue per se w/the movements he shows - they are not wrong or bad in and of themselves, if they are applied properly and w/specificity - neither of which he does; so what I take issue with is that he lumps together "low back pain" as if all LBP were the same, then shows movements that while possibly helpful in some cases, could cause serious exacerbation in others; that's just irresponsible, IMPE; second, he keeps pushing his jow - that's just obvious; third, he says that LBP will take a year to get better - another gross generalization: as u doubtless know from your own clinical practice, some people get better immediately, some take longer, some never do...

that said, in regards to not breaking anyone's rice bow, while I agree, there is another thing to consider, which is that the average person looking for TCMA instruction has no real context within which to judge whether or not a given style is valid, and as such might end up wasting a lot of time and money being led down the garden path - they may even get injured by improper practice or by trying to use what they have learned to defend themselves; at best, they will loose precious time until they figure out that what they are learning is drech; that said, if my posting my opinion about something like BFP can at least give some neophyte reason to pause, and to maybe verify their personal misgivings, then I have no remorse about it - I agree we are not the Southern Fist police, but at least someone researching the style will be given an alternate perspective; with that in mind, they can then more objectively decide for themselves if BFP is where they want to invest their time and $...

[taai gihk yahn]

Did training with TCS create some disaffection on your part, towards the TCMAs? Was it his secrecy regarding certain gongs? Something that Dave Ross has referred to in the past? Or were there other factors? If am I asking too much, then tell me to shut up.
Or am I misunderstanding you?

it's simple - he called BS when he saw it, and as such he burst the bubble of a lot of the so-called "old guard" guys who had been stringing along American students for years under the misapprehension that they were the real deal; CTS was like, "you guys are students of my training brothers and their students, don't get in my face, lol";
so he got us over the whole "being in awe just because someone is old and Chinese" bit - we learned to critically evaluate a lot of material, to tell good from bad pretty quickly and reliably - we were fortunate that he spoke his mind, and was as quick to compliment quality as he was to point out crap
as for secrets, sure, there was stuff I am pretty certain he didn't talk about in regards to qigong - not to me at least, and maybe not to anyone, who knows; he obviously had Iron Body / Head and Palm skills; but I think he would have shown it to anyone who would have applied themselves seriously to learning it - he was basically a "I'll meet you where you are at" kind of guy - which is why those of us who stuck it out got what we got and those who showed up w/attitude got increasingly "bad" stuff as they went along (meaning he'd start by giving anyone benefit of the doubt, and then scaled back as their ignorance became more apparent...);
he also thought boxing, judo, etc. were all good things to learn and know; he did not consider any sort of good MA to be irrelevant, it was al potentially useful to him;

CTS seems to have been the real deal. A traditionalists that made his art work in combat, apparently too effectively, sometimes.

he made as many enemies as friends; but no one in the NY or SF or US TCMA community in general ever messed w/him...
he was a combat veteran, a true survivor; in modern terms, I could easily diagnose PTSD to at least some degree...
also, a lot of his combat experience was using weapons, especially staff;

He was also declared a living treasure by China? Am I correct?

yes

Definitely an interesting character and an asset to have as a sifu. However, I guess he was a complicated person as well.

lol, on the first page or so of this thread
http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/show...t=chan+tai+san
Ross says exactly that! anyway, this is the thread you want to read to get about as clear a picture of the man as you are going to get at this point; it should answer some of what you ask above; it may even give you a different perspective on Ross! and probably there is a lot of evidence of his legacy in there as well (the whoe Lama versus Monkey thing from a few years ago comes to mind...)