What do you think?

[t_niehoff]

ac tually thats not always true ive seen plenty of countdown to ufc episodes where the show the figthers throwing crisps neat combos with their hands up during training and pad work and when they fight they are swinging wildly and leaving their hands down

When those guys are training, they are "practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting", whether they have internalized that training yet is something else. The other aspect is conditioning. I can tell you from lots of personal experience that when you are exhausted, your training can go out the window. It's fair to say, I think, that your level of conditioning is the limit of your performance ability.

[goju]

When those guys are training, they are "practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting", whether they have internalized that training yet is something else. The other aspect is conditioning. I can tell you from lots of personal experience that when you are exhausted, your training can go out the window. It's fair to say, I think, that your level of conditioning is the limit of your performance ability.

how do you explain when they do it with in the first minute of a fight then? lol

it has nothing to do with conditioning its adrenaline when your body is pumping with it everything can go flying out the window

as ive said most mma fighters look better when they are hitting the pads or air as well

[t_niehoff]

Street versus sport is a natural dichotomy because of the etiquette, rules, and Laws that govern. In addition, the average skill of the fighters whom one is facing is quite different between the street and sport. Finally, your your own goals matter (self-defense, bouncing, police, etc).

All of these factors and more contribute to different sets of techniques and skills being the most effective, efficient, or "pragmatic".

Tons of stuff has been written on the street vs. sport question/mentality. (The SBGi has asection on it). It is not a "natural dichotomy" as you say but a philosophical dead end. It's a wrong question. It arises when you don't look at things from a skill-based (performance) perspective.

As I see it, WCK is a specific approach to fighting. It provides us a method and the skills (or skillset) to implement that method. As the kuit says, the method comes from the ancestors, the key is adapting it to the circumstances.

[t_niehoff]

how do you explain when they do it with in the first minute of a fight then? lol

it has nothing to do with conditioning its adrenaline when your body is pumping with it everything can go flying out the window

as ive said most mma fighters look better when they are hitting the pads or air as well

As I said, some haven't internalized their training yet. You have, for example, very good jits or wrestlers who haven't been doing stand-up striking for long yet are still fighting, or stand-up strikers who hit the ground and can't escape a pin (yet you see them doing it in practice). Skill is being able to do in fighting what you do in training. When people can't do in fighting what they do in training, when the training goes out the window, it means they are not very skilled. AS they get better skilled . . .

[HumbleWCGuy]

Tons of stuff has been written on the street vs. sport question/mentality. (The SBGi has asection on it). It is not a "natural dichotomy" as you say but a philosophical dead end. It's a wrong question. It arises when you don't look at things from a skill-based (performance) perspective.

As I see it, WCK is a specific approach to fighting. It provides us a method and the skills (or skillset) to implement that method. As the kuit says, the method comes from the ancestors, the key is adapting it to the circumstances.

What you are saying rings pretty hollow. You are trying to turn me into some sort of a straw man to knock down. I am sorry but the street-sport dichotomy exists irrespective of what you think just as their are obvious differences between cats and dogs. Ring effective isn't the same as street effective although ring effective is a key component street effectiveness. One can have all the attributes and ring skill in the world but it is necessary to have the body of knowledge that gives you the best chance to survive a knife fight, gun attack, multiple attackers, and so on.

let me refer to a concrete example from my own experience where I was just trying to survive the legalities of the situation with 50 witnesses.
Someone who I deem to be a pretty weak fighter attacks me in a drug induced rage because I attempted to break up his fight. What should I do?
1. Beat his face in ring-sport style and risk jail?
2. Use some chin na that would never be useful in a ring setting to incapacitate him util the police arrived?

I chose to stay way on the good side of the law and used chin na.

I could go on.

Now... as I have put it to throughout this thread, please explain to me how I am at a philosophical dead end because I teach chin na which has marginal ring effectiveness as part of my curriculum? Should I ignore the dichotomy and tell my students that they should have no problem getting off standing locks and rudimentary trips against an mma fighter? Should I stop teaching chin na because it isn't ring effective? We practice these techniques with the same intensity that we would our ring techniques, although much of our chin na entries are predicated on using the mistakes that street fighters make.

[Wayfaring]

Now... as I have put it to throughout this thread, please explain to me how I am at a philosophical dead end because I teach chin na which has marginal ring effectiveness as part of my curriculum? Should I ignore the dichotomy and tell my students that they should have no problem getting off standing locks and rudimentary trips against an mma fighter? Should I stop teaching chin na because it isn't ring effective? We practice these techniques with the same intensity that we would our ring techniques, although much of our chin na entries are predicated on using the mistakes that street fighters make.

It sounds like the chin na you practice is like aikido or japanese ju jitsu. Things can be effective, but there is not a delivery system trained to make them work well against live opponents (not of the scrub variety).

If you train things that work well against live opponents, scrubs won't be a consideration at all, and you don't have to practice something different for competant opponents than you do for scrubs.

[Wayfaring]

If someone else were saying this, I would probably agree 85%. But, since, niehoff has such a narrow view. I would have to guess that what he suggests, is just as likely to produce failures.

Yeah, well maybe, but without the niehoff factor this forum is boring as h$ll. All yin and no yang, or other way around or something.

[Lee Chiang Po]

As a young man I did some bouncing and other work that sometimes led to confrontation, and for the most part, I was able to handle it. I never had much problem with stand up fighters or people that wanted to roll. I might not have fared well in a ring with people that daily train for that, but then again, I was no pushover either. I also have black belts in Japanese Jujitsu, and I have used it extensively as well. It is in my opinion far more effective in a fight than what BJJ would be. In my case I was not hindered by ring rules, and I could use any technique I wanted to use. I did not have to stand an wail on somone or have them do me. It makes a great big difference. If you spend your days fighting in the ring, or even if you aspire to do that, you will have to train by the rules of the ring, and in this case you will have to fight others that do the same. you will usually be faces with force against force. If all these other styles of fighting were so good then ANY person training in them would be able to beat Any WC man, or that is what I am hearing. We know that can not be the truth in any event. Just because you roll around on the ring floor with someone does not make you unbeatable.

[HumbleWCGuy]

It sounds like the chin na you practice is like aikido or japanese ju jitsu..

Chin na is expanded version of aikido after all.

Things can be effective, but there is not a delivery system trained to make them work well against live opponents (not of the scrub variety).
If you train things that work well against live opponents, scrubs won't be a consideration at all, and you don't have to practice something different for competent opponents than you do for scrubs.

True in terms of logic but not true in terms reality.

Please, tell us about how you intend to disarm a dog brother with your bare hands? Tell me tell me how you would chicken wing a figher of similar skill to yourself and run him out of a bar? What techniques and delivery system do you have at your disposal to accomplish this task more efficiently than I have seen in 10 years and my massive video library with at least 30 videos on weapons and street fighting?

Sure, we can always apply a kickboxing-style beating to someone and chicken wing them, but it may not meet our goal as an officer of the law, security worker, or decent human being. In addition, to deliver a chin na technique in such a manner against a unskilled opponent, fails to take advantage of an opponent's weakness which is a flawed approach in its own right.

[t_niehoff]

What you are saying rings pretty hollow. You are trying to turn me into some sort of a straw man to knock down. I am sorry but the street-sport dichotomy exists irrespective of what you think just as their are obvious differences between cats and dogs. Ring effective isn't the same as street effective although ring effective is a key component street effectiveness. One can have all the attributes and ring skill in the world but it is necessary to have the body of knowledge that gives you the best chance to survive a knife fight, gun attack, multiple attackers, and so on.

You keep trying to create a dichotomy that isn't there. You could point out that there are differences in all venues of fighting -- the cage is different than the ring, for example. You try to point out that emptyhand fighting doesn't prepare you for weapons -- well, duh!

let me refer to a concrete example from my own experience where I was just trying to survive the legalities of the situation with 50 witnesses.
Someone who I deem to be a pretty weak fighter attacks me in a drug induced rage because I attempted to break up his fight. What should I do?
1. Beat his face in ring-sport style and risk jail?
2. Use some chin na that would never be useful in a ring setting to incapacitate him util the police arrived?

I chose to stay way on the good side of the law and used chin na.

Why spend the time learning and training something that is - by your own admission - not sound so that you can use that against scrubs and then spend time training stuff that is sound that you can use against good people? Why not just train sound, solid fundamental fighting skills? If you are a trained, skilled grappler, you could restrain someone - particularly a drunk scrub - without beating in his face. You don't need crap like chin na to do that.

I could go on.

Now... as I have put it to throughout this thread, please explain to me how I am at a philosophical dead end because I teach chin na which has marginal ring effectiveness as part of my curriculum?

In wrestling they have a term "junk". Junk is stuff that works at a certain level of wrestling but fails at higher levels. All competitive activities have this. It's the stuff that works not because it is good, solid stuff (which will work against anyone) but because your opponent is poor. What you are essentially asking is why not train junk?

The simple answer is becase you don't need it (if you have the good stuff).

Should I ignore the dichotomy and tell my students that they should have no problem getting off standing locks and rudimentary trips against an mma fighter? Should I stop teaching chin na because it isn't ring effective? We practice these techniques with the same intensity that we would our ring techniques, although much of our chin na entries are predicated on using the mistakes that street fighters make.

There are several problems with junk. One of which is that it begins with an assumption that your opponent is a scrub -- in other words, you begin by underestimating him. Do you think this is a good idea on "the streets"? What if you assume he is a scrub, try your junk and find out the guy has had some training -- now the junk has put you in a bad place (you are doing something silly against someone who knows what he is doing). Why not start with the assumption that he is good, that he will have skills, and go from there? As I said, you can do the same things with good, sound stuff as you can with junk.

[Wayfaring]

Please, tell us about how you intend to disarm a dog brother with your bare hands? Tell me tell me how you would chicken wing a figher of similar skill to yourself and run him out of a bar? What techniques and delivery system do you have at your disposal to accomplish this task more efficiently than I have seen in 10 years and my massive video library with at least 30 videos on weapons and street fighting?

Actually the combination of BJJ with JJJ is a good one. I know several BJJ black belts that have high level aikido / jjj locks. That way you have a delivery system to go with the locks that works on people that aren't scrubs or unskilled drunks in a bar. Sambo, sub wrestling, etc. - find people who compete with it to train with.

As far as dog brothers, ask Dale / Knifefighter. He posts on here, and is a dog brother.

And seriously, WTF is a chicken wing? Is it some deadly submission hold I need to be afraid of? Fear th3 ch1cken wing?

Sure, we can always apply a kickboxing-style beating to someone and chicken wing them, but it may not meet our goal as an officer of the law, security worker, or decent human being. In addition, to deliver a chin na technique in such a manner against a unskilled opponent, fails to take advantage of an opponent's weakness which is a flawed approach in its own right.

Skilled grappling is always better IMO in a peace officer application. Again, a skilled delivery system WITH aikido / jjj / chin na is the way to go. That way you can train and refine what really works live.

[goju]

And seriously, WTF is a chicken wing? Is it some deadly submission hold I need to be afraid of? Fear th3 ch1cken wing?

we all fear the chicken wing

[HumbleWCGuy]

Wayfaring and Niehoff,
Neither of you are providing any specifics which is why I call your arguments hollow. I provided logic for my position supported with realistic examples. All either of you have done is tell me that I am wrong and not back it up with anything other than vague claims about what someone can supposedly do. It's interesting that niehoff says that chin na is not worthwhile, yet i have used it to great effect on a number of occasions. Moreover, I must tell both of you that it is no different than any other standing grappling that I have seen.

[Knifefighter]

Wayfaring and Niehoff,
Neither of you are providing any specifics which is why I call your arguments hollow. I provided logic for my position supported with realistic examples. All either of you have done is tell me that I am wrong and not back it up with anything other than vague claims about what someone can supposedly do. It's interesting that niehoff says that chin na is not worthwhile, yet i have used it to great effect on a number of occasions. Moreover, I must tell both of you that it is no different than any other standing grappling that I have seen.

So you are using chi na as a controlling method and not a locking/finishing method?

Because that is what realistic standup grappling is. Either a means to control an opponent (i.e. under/over hooks, handfighting, biceps control, etc) or as a means to set up a takedown.

Trying to lock/finish an opponent will standing is one of the lowest percentage things you can do.

[Knifefighter]

Please, tell us about how you intend to disarm a dog brother with your bare hands?

Stickfighting experience + BJJ = easy disarms.

Tell me tell me how you would chicken wing a figher of similar skill to yourself and run him out of a bar?

If you are trying to use chicken wing while standing, you are pretty clueless.

What techniques and delivery system do you have at your disposal to accomplish this task more efficiently than I have seen in 10 years and my massive video library with at least 30 videos on weapons and street fighting?

The techniques done in most MMA fights are 10x more effective than the ones you are talking about.