What do you think?

[Knifefighter]

dale settle down we dont need you to have a another foaming at the mouth heart attack like last time

i dotn want to do hard training? lol thats funny because form people that have seen your vids said your slopppy with so so stand up

but yeah i guess your in position to tell other people they dont train hard

Well, let's see... I've been training and competing in BJJ for over 15 years now. I'd say I have a pretty good idea of who gets taught the b.s. standup stuff and who does the hard training.

I'd say I have a pretty good idea of what camp you fell into. I'm betting your parents paid for your training, right?

[Kansuke]

Exactly... and this is part of what makes competition so important. The more you do, the closer you get to being able to use it well under pressure.

Good point.

[Phil Redmond]

Exactly... and this is part of what makes competition so important. The more you do, the closer you get to being able to use it well under pressure.

On the money, though I competed in the 80's I do know the adrenalin rush during the fight, being able to continue after receiving a good blow (I got hit by Jonas Nunez in 1986 so hard that I heard the audience go oooooo), how to maintain breath control/stamina under pressure, etc. You only get to know these things by competing against people outside of your school/friend comfort zone.

[goju]

Well, let's see... I've been training and competing in BJJ for over 15 years now. I'd say I have a pretty good idea of who gets taught the b.s. standup stuff and who does the hard training.

I'd say I have a pretty good idea of what camp you fell into. I'm betting your parents paid for your training, right?

the gentleman i studied under learned directly from royce gracie


dude i hate to break it to you but youve only had a few fights and you have a ufc champion size ego and for being in the martial arts for as long as you have its not saying much when your skill is described as " okay" or "sloppy"

now i know at your height gentleman like yourself are prone to a napoleon complex but your ego has gotten pretty old by now

and since we are speculating on here about each other i thought i add a bit of my own thoughts

personally i think youre disgruntled because youre not a well known fighter and at your age its impossible for you to ever become one

i think you have hard time dealing with this and have thus become a very bitter human being who feels the need to attack other martial artists and styles so you can try to feel better about your own competition record and skill

[HumbleWCGuy]

personally i think youre disgruntled because youre not a well known fighter and at your age its impossible for you to ever become one

i think you have hard time dealing with this and have thus become a very bitter human being who feels the need to attack other martial artists and styles so you can try to feel better about your own competition record and skill

I get the sense that everybody who goes on too much about MMA and training methods is probably disgruntled. Today, it is almost a given that one must train attributes, and develop timing in a progressive manner. If one insists that the ring tells them everything that their is about fighting, THIS is not the correct board for them because ring fighting is not the sum of WCK. I have laughed at people for going on 20 years about their archaic training methods and the importance of the lessons of ring fighting, but people like niehoff and apparently knifefighter now have take a basic truths that come from ring sports training and droned so heavily about them that I am starting to question the soundness of peoples training in the other direction. This is a very narrow and vapid perspective.

[HumbleWCGuy]

One of my favorite scenes in a movie comes from Rocky Five. Tommy Gun rips Rocky for not wanting to get into the ring and Rocky finally says something like, "Yo Tommy, my ring is outside." Through the whole movie we learn that Tommy has the better ring skills being younger and stronger, but we know that Rocky is going to use his expanded skill set honed in the mean streets of Philly to win. I


know that it's just a movie, but I can say from experience, if your mindset is ring, ring, ring, you are only partially ready for what is waiting for you in the street.

[t_niehoff]

Wayfaring and Niehoff,
Neither of you are providing any specifics which is why I call your arguments hollow. I provided logic for my position supported with realistic examples. All either of you have done is tell me that I am wrong and not back it up with anything other than vague claims about what someone can supposedly do. It's interesting that niehoff says that chin na is not worthwhile, yet i have used it to great effect on a number of occasions. Moreover, I must tell both of you that it is no different than any other standing grappling that I have seen.

Your argument is essentially "I got away with it" so it must be good. Go back and read what I wrote about junk. Junk "works" -- but it works not because it is solid or sound but because your opponent is really bad. It own't work against someone with solid fundamental skills or someoeone with good attributes. If you want evidence of that, go to a good MMA gym and try your chin na. Basing your method on junk is training to fail (since it will only work to a certain, low level).

Chin na is not like greco, it's not like judo (two other standing grappling methods) -- both of those rely on solid, sound fundamentals, stuff that has consistently worked against the best grapplers in the world.

[t_niehoff]

I get the sense that everybody who goes on too much about MMA and training methods is probably disgruntled.

That's another ad hominem attack -- don't listen to them, they are "disgruntled."

I only speak for myself, but I am motivated by trying to get better, to perform better. The primary thing in getting better and performing better -- regardless of your art -- is HOW you train. To determine how to best train, it only makes sense to look to people with proven high levels of skill and performance (since they must be doing something right), and see how they train. Also we need to look at those training methods across populations.

What we see over and over again is that the modern, sport-based model of training (which takes a skill-oriented view) consistently produces very good results. Moreover, their results are consistent with what we klnow today (from science) on how the human body best learns and develops psycho-motor skills.

Today, it is almost a given that one must train attributes, and develop timing in a progressive manner. If one insists that the ring tells them everything that their is about fighting,

Fighting (WCK) attributes, and especially timing, are only developed to a significant degree BY fighting.

It's not the "ring", it is that you are fighting (practicing the skill you are trying to develop) and, equally important, you are practicing that (fighting) against very good (skilled) fighters. That's how you get better.

Good fighters will show you your mistakes, they will show you when your stuff is junk, etc.

THIS is not the correct board for them because ring fighting is not the sum of WCK. I have laughed at people for going on 20 years about their archaic training methods and the importance of the lessons of ring fighting, but people like niehoff and apparently knifefighter now have take a basic truths that come from ring sports training and droned so heavily about them that I am starting to question the soundness of peoples training in the other direction. This is a very narrow and vapid perspective.

The WCK curriculum, the forms, classical drills, etc.,will teach you the WCK movement, skills, etc. But they don't-- and can't -- teach you to apply those movement/skills, to fight with them. You can only learn and develop that (application) by fighting. It's the same with any combative activity, method, sport, etc. That being the case, IF we want to develop our application (fighting) skill, we need to seek out good (skilled) fighters to train (spar) with. You can call that a "narrow perspective" if you like, but it is the ONLY road that will take you to fighting competence and beyond.

[goju]

That's another ad hominem attack -- don't listen to them, they are "disgruntled."

I only speak for myself, but I am motivated by trying to get better, to perform better. The primary thing in getting better and performing better -- regardless of your art -- is HOW you train. To determine how to best train, it only makes sense to look to people with proven high levels of skill and performance (since they must be doing something right), and see how they train. Also we need to look at those training methods across populations.

What we see over and over again is that the modern, sport-based model of training (which takes a skill-oriented view) consistently produces very good results. Moreover, their results are consistent with what we klnow today (from science) on how the human body best learns and develops psycho-motor skills.



Fighting (WCK) attributes, and especially timing, are only developed to a significant degree BY fighting.

It's not the "ring", it is that you are fighting (practicing the skill you are trying to develop) and, equally important, you are practicing that (fighting) against very good (skilled) fighters. That's how you get better.

Good fighters will show you your mistakes, they will show you when your stuff is junk, etc.



The WCK curriculum, the forms, classical drills, etc.,will teach you the WCK movement, skills, etc. But they don't-- and can't -- teach you to apply those movement/skills, to fight with them. You can only learn and develop that (application) by fighting. It's the same with any combative activity, method, sport, etc. That being the case, IF we want to develop our application (fighting) skill, we need to seek out good (skilled) fighters to train (spar) with. You can call that a "narrow perspective" if you like, but it is the ONLY road that will take you to fighting competence and beyond.

the reason why some people may view you and dale as disgruntled is because you were former traditional martial artists

many current mma practioners used to do tma and they either werent very good at it or in most often cases were spanked really badly by a boxer or mt stylist or whatever and all the sudden they poo poo all tma and jump on the mma bandwagon and feel the need to attack other people who continue to practice their arts

[punchdrunk]

I don't think training in BJJ or MT or anything else for that matter makes you automatically disgruntled former TCMA. I think more people should go out and try new methods and ideas, and spar or train with other schools. Even TCMA had exchanges either from sparring, demo's, or exchanging methods and training with other schools.
It get's annoying to read the same thing over and over... but the point is true. To get ability and skill you must perform the task under as realistic pressure as possible. Wanna learn to stop someone from shooting in and taking you down, you better train with someone who can shoot in and take you down. Think your punches are good for knocking people out? Better get out there and knock some heads to find the truth.
Otherwise you might as well larp and theorize about chi cause without experience your just theorizing about fighting.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't think training in BJJ or MT or anything else for that matter makes you automatically disgruntled former TCMA. I think more people should go out and try new methods and ideas, and spar or train with other schools. Even TCMA had exchanges either from sparring, demo's, or exchanging methods and training with other schools.
It get's annoying to read the same thing over and over... but the point is true. To get ability and skill you must perform the task under as realistic pressure as possible. Wanna learn to stop someone from shooting in and taking you down, you better train with someone who can shoot in and take you down. Think your punches are good for knocking people out? Better get out there and knock some heads to find the truth.
Otherwise you might as well larp and theorize about chi cause without experience your just theorizing about fighting.

Agreed, expanding your horizons and honing your training methods does not mean that you are disgruntled. I am the first to say that if your school does not have the opportunity for grappling training, a healthy dose of bag and mitt training, progressive drills that build sparring ability, and a healthy does of sparring, you must seek it out. Disgruntled is about having an irrational hatred of traditional and irrational liking for the modern.

[m1k3]

Disgruntled is about having an irrational hatred of traditional and irrational liking for the modern.

Hahahahahahaha! I suppose that you prefer blood letting and leeches to modern medicine. Perhaps you live in a mud hut because that's how the ancients did it. Modern training methods work better than traditional. That is why olympic athletes and modern militaries are constantly improving the way they train. They are interested in results plain and simple.

[goju]

^ sigh your assuming a lot with that statement

actual tma advocated training ideology that is largely used to day

[HumbleWCGuy]

Hahahahahahaha! I suppose that you prefer blood letting and leeches to modern medicine. Perhaps you live in a mud hut because that's how the ancients did it. Modern training methods work better than traditional. That is why olympic athletes and modern militaries are constantly improving the way they train. They are interested in results plain and simple.

Interesting because I never said such a thing anywhere at any time against improving ones training. You took one sentence out of context and made a straw man out of it. Albeit, not a very good straw man. I am not speaking against the modern, I am speaking against people who irrationally dismiss the old.

[Knifefighter]

One of my favorite scenes in a movie comes from Rocky Five. Tommy Gun rips Rocky for not wanting to get into the ring and Rocky finally says something like, "Yo Tommy, my ring is outside." Through the whole movie we learn that Tommy has the better ring skills being younger and stronger, but we know that Rocky is going to use his expanded skill set honed in the mean streets of Philly to win. I


know that it's just a movie, but I can say from experience, if your mindset is ring, ring, ring, you are only partially ready for what is waiting for you in the street.

LOL @ thinking your pretend training is going to prepare you for "teh str33t".

The ring is not everything, but it is far better than the pretend training that 99.9% of all TMA practitioners do.