RDH,
> Its true that the vast majority of mantis in the schools is a cheap version of Yu Hais form (which is actually a great form, as Yuhai genuinly knows a lot of mantis).
Yes, you can see some of his real Tanglang briefly in the courtyard training scene where Li Lianjie peaks over the wall in the original Shaolin Si. Of course he finishes it off with a bit of his characteristic mantis shaking.
> But even Dejuns Mantis forms (and I'm not knocking him) are not strictly shaolin.
Yes, his Tanglang forms are definitely born in Qingdao.
> Shaolin did absorb 2 simple Mantis forms around the time the style was created.
It's debatable though. Most likely Tanglang is an indigenous Shandong system, born out of Luohan, Taizu Quan, Tongbei that later retrospectively attributed it's founding to Shaolin.
> These are harder to find and have diverged a lot between the different sects. They are very strange and less characteristically mantis than Dejuns forms. And they favour various types of claw technique above the mantis hand, ranging from drunken like fist to a kind of eagle claw, with the mantis hand appearing very rarely.
Classic TLQ doesn't use the hook much at all and also uses raking claws etc, as mentioned above. A hint on the dodginess of TLQ is the amount of hooks used, and also the applications of these hooks. Majority of finger poke applications are bogus. They are there but they are used in the standard 'point the way' or 'twin dragons searching for pearls' straight fwd finger thrust type usage or the fanning, swiping cut across the eyes. The gou shou in Tanglang is a deflect and grab and only in rare instances is it for fingering the eyes, usually then only to the rear or side. And as far as using the finger tips in gou shou to strike pressure points, pretty much non-existant in authentic Tanglang. Actually if you look at Dejun's forms there is not too much hooking at all, and in some taolu such as Cha Chui, pretty much none. Where it does appear its in it's classical usage - shuang feng shou and as the destabilising hand in hook sweep/kicks.
> Shaolin is not the place to learn mantis, its the place to learn shaolin.
I agree. However for me, Dejun is an interesting missing link in my own family because he's a snapshot of a time when TLQ was making an apparent reconnection with Shaolin (even if they were only ever connected by lore). Also, Li Zhanyuan taught slightly different material in Henan then in Qingdao so its an interesting variant. I think Dejun teaches in Anhui these days anyway so even less reason for one to search it out there. I went to Shaolin in 93 looking for roots and found only a couple of monks who knew elements of Shandong Tanglang and the rest only knew Yu Hai's version or the strange snake tongue fingered shaolin version of it with the stances that were almost splits.
>And so if your going to learn mantis at shaolin you should go for shaolins traditional mantis. Its still shaolin, just borrows some concepts from mantis.
I would say if you're looking for TLQ don't go to Shaolin at all. There's already enough valuable stuff to learn in Shaolin curriculum without bothering with their newer creations or imported material. But yes, if you want to learn Shaolin's TLQ, learn the one that at least resembles classical Shandong mantis boxing.
Cheers,
BT
Last edited by B.Tunks; 02-10-2011 at 04:19 PM.
If you go to Shaolin and are doing serious research, you hunt down the master, not the style. A lot of great masters pass through Shaolin, leaving bits of their legacy. I'm impressed that B.Tunks found a link to his lineage through Dejun.
To disregard Shaolin for the 30,000 modern wushu players is folly. There's still 10,000 traditionalists.
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Good point. Unfortunately most people in the West dismiss Shaolin largely as a joke. Of course there is some truth in this perception but the remaining gems (of which there are many) are overlooked. A lot of time and money has been spent on a physical facelift for the temple and surrounds in the last 10 years or so. Something of a martial facelift may now be due.
TTT
Been working for a few months mostly on the Eagle Claw version of babu luan han chuan...wish I could find a vid of it I like. It's the same form as the Shaolin version, but re-worked into an Eagle claw form (with heavy Shaolin flavor). Have found it very interesting to compare the two forms move by move.
If I practice any forms these days, it's Xiaohongquan. When I was a teen I used to love doing:
Wubuquan
Lohanshibashou
Lianquan (i think)
Xiaohongquan
dahongquan
Tongbiquan
Damojian
dao
jiang
staff
I mostly learned from the Taguo books, and Shi Decheng's 3 VHS set that I got from Wing Lam in the 90's. That VHS is priceless to me, unfortunately I no longer have a VHS player. I was thinking about getting them transferred to digital.
Lian Huan Quan
Wu Shing Ba Fa
Lohan Qi Basho
Shao Pao Quan
Shao Hung Quan
Ton Bei
Qi Qing Quan
Shao Lohan
Chao Yun Quan
Da Mo Cane
Ying Shao Gun
as well as a monk spade and broadsword form and a few other staff forms im not sure if they are shaolin or not; plum flower, wind & fire etc.
Here's my list. Not so long, but more than plenty to keep me busy
Wugulun Pai style:
Pan Gen I, II
Ba Duan Jin
Xiao Hong Quan
Long Xing Qigong I
Qi Mei Gun
Last edited by rett; 01-05-2012 at 07:34 AM.
If you're talking about what he calls Dapaoquan, the longer one, no... it's taught and trained as one long set.
It's split up into two roads on his instructional DVDs, but don't pay attention to them. Most of the video versions are wrong. Not his legit student versions. Basically every teacher who makes such DVDs does this.
I had a cold the other night and after reading this thread, I listed all my sets out, and then decided to do them one after the other until after 2am. About 4 or 5 of them have become fuzzy in places and need more attention. But I don't have a cold anymore.
Including all bare-hand, weapon, and neigong sets, not including modern sets and only including Songshan, I know 40 some, almost 50. Some other sets from previous masters I have lost, vaguely remember but don't care to regain.
Since they are all Songshan Shaolin and share the same basics, with a lot of overlap, it's not that difficult. I also practice Hongquan, Paoquan, and Tongbiquan sets together. For example, I always do three roads of Dahongquan or Xiaotongbiquan as one set. So it's easier to retain.
Around 30 of those are bare-hand which I focus on more than weapons. Then it's almost even between weapon and neigong, weapons being a bit more, and mainly staff sets.
A couple years ago I was told to choose 1 or 2 specialty sets to train and make really good. Everyone in Shaolin must do this at some point. Think:
Taizu Changquan = Liang Yiquan
Qixingquan/Changhuxinyimenquan = Liu Baoshan
Dahongquan = Shi Deyang
The main one I've been working on is Xiaoluohanquan which best fits my stature.
I have gone back to practicing Tan Tui. Which I had not done in quite some time.
It's been a while since I've participated in a thread like this. After reading LFJ's post, I decided to list all the taolu I'm acquainted with ...just over 50. Too many!
Here are the one's that I practice at least a few times a week:
Pangen (everyday!)
Tongchunquan
Xiaohongquan (everyday!)
Paoquan
Yangjia Dahongquan
Baduanjin
Yijinjing
Bengbu
Baji Xiaojia
Sanzhan
The last three aren't Shaolin but I like doing them and they seem to fit.
For me:
Some line exercises.
Wu Bu Quan
Lianhuan Quan
Xiao Hong Quan
Oh, and I'm about halfway through learning Yinshou Gun at the moment.
I train in all these daily, when I can.
My shaolin forms have fallen out of practice since the last time I went to the temple in 2010. I just started brushing up on them last week. I've been training
Xiao Hong Quan
Da Hong Quan
Taizu Quan
Qixing Quan
Lian Huan Quan
Lian Huan Babu Quan
here is some video I shot Sunday of my forms practice this is only the second training session after a 2 year lapse so they are a little rusty
http://youtu.be/P-hDDRvZ69w
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So, after years of studying Shaolin family gong fu but not strictly the modern curriculum of Songshan Shaolin, I'm finally studying 'proper' Songshan Shaolin at the Kunming Shaolin Temple.
My teacher there started me on Shaolin Tongbi Quan, which I guess is a typical starter form. So I think this is my first official "Songshan" form. It doesn't feel like anything new though (which is a good thing), frankly it's all the same **** I've been doing for years...so that feels good. All you guys studying 'official' Shaolin forms were making me a little self-conscious, but it's clear to me now without a doubt that I was already learning 'real' Shaolin gong fu, just with different taolu.
Anyway, cool form, and it's definitely 'scenic' to do my training in an ancient Buddhist Temple with a Shaolin monk for a teacher.