Where is the WCK?

[t_niehoff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiYZnw-wfRY

It's great to see WCK guys lightly sparring with nonWCK fighters -- but when I see stuff like this, it makes me wonder: how does an experience like this make them feel about their WCK training? Do they realize that they are not moving like they train to move in WCK, they are not doing what they advocate doing with their theory? I mean, if they wanted to box and move like a boxer, wouldn't it make more sense to actually train and practice that?

[weakstudent]

i didn't see any wing chun just basic kickboxing, but i enjoyed the clip, nice body shots by the wing chun sifu, mma guy looked like a thai boxer the way he was eating the body shots, hands held high, good cardio wasn't even breathing hard

[hunt1]

There is only so much training time a person has. The saying is you fight like you train. If you are going to train wing chun and all it includes, chi sau etc, but then fight like a kick boxer etc you should stop the wing chun and just train the way you are going to fight. Going to a wing chun teacher who is teaching you to fight as a kick boxer is a waste of money. Go to a MMA school etc instead. If you want to train "art" that's fine but don't kid yourself about fighting. If you want to train and fight with wing chun and you don't have a teacher that can teach you train yourself by sparring with non wing chun people and learn how to apply wing chun.

[weakstudent]

i agree, but it could be the wing chun Sifu was fooling around having fun, but why not have fun by using wing chun to counter and attack i mean he is a sifu.

[sanjuro_ronin]

WC will never "look" like WC VS other systems, unless it is trained, from the very beginning VS other systems.
Of course the very "look" of WC is debatable.
Sure everyone would love to be Donnie Yen in Ip Man, now THAT is WC !
LOL !

Thing is, have you ever seen WC "look" like WC outside of the kwoon?

Sure it is very hard to find WC vs anything other than WC and when we do it looks very little like how WC is trained, yet the same is NOT said about other MA such as MT, boxing, Judo, South Peruvian ass thumbing.

Why is that?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've been saying for years now that adding elements of boxing/kickboxing to either finish your man or for getting close enough (safely) to a more wing chun oriented approach to striking and controlling from close range...is the way to go...

and the guy in black who was wearing a TWC shirt (although I personally don't know who he is)...he could have utilized TWC many times in that vid when he was getting close and connecting - or even before he actually connected with shots...but he didn't.

Not because such moves are un-usable...but because for whatever reason he didn't use them.

[sihing]

WC will never "look" like WC VS other systems, unless it is trained, from the very beginning VS other systems.
Of course the very "look" of WC is debatable.
Sure everyone would love to be Donnie Yen in Ip Man, now THAT is WC !
LOL !

Thing is, have you ever seen WC "look" like WC outside of the kwoon?

Sure it is very hard to find WC vs anything other than WC and when we do it looks very little like how WC is trained, yet the same is NOT said about other MA such as MT, boxing, Judo, South Peruvian ass thumbing.

Why is that?

Here's my take on your question Paul. WC isn't trained as a style. It doesn't tell you how to move nor what to do when this or that attack comes to you. Rather you are training specific body mechanics/structures that function in close when limb to limb contact is made (if no contact is made the hit is made). On the outside (where the two guys in the vid were functioning), you don't need the WC training, although the system does provide you with a general strategy to gain entry. In sparring you will need to learn how to enter and move around at this range. In SD you don't need to learn how to enter since the other guy is usually the aggressor, wanting to fight with you. What this means is that there is no stand off in the street. If someone calls me out and goes outside with his fists up I have a choice if I want to engage with him. If he just gets in my face or space with aggression, here I have no choice since he is the one attacking. This is where WC functions. It's not an art designed for sparring, trading blows nor comps. It's a training method. Someone comes towards me with any attack I counter, so basically we are counter fighters (not to say that we can't attack as well, we are not robots nor slaves to the system).

We train perfection in the kwoon, perfecting shapes, angles, lines of attack, positioning, energy, etc... so that it comes out somewhat correct when it's real. If you can't do it perfect in class your effectiveness will be effected since the training will help you little when you need. For e.g. fok sau can be considered a way to have something in front of you. Someone comes at you with an upper body attack, you raise your arms to meet it, the information coming in from the contact tells you things. The arms raising to meet it, this is an attack in itself, not just a deflection or way to stop the attack. Sometimes the force coming towards you is great, so you retreat while trying to maintain the closeness gained in the initial engagement (you don't want to have to regain that space, once you have it use it too your advantage). If the force is not so great you crash thru, going for his COM while attacking, taking it too him (putting him on the defensive). This is learned to be second nature thru the training, and is not meant to be learned as a technique or defense, you just react and let the training control what you do. There's no concern for how it looks, nor maintaining a principle or style, just that it is effective, and if not, you adapt enough so that you are the one in control and successful in the encounter. Maintaining structures and principles, thinking about them and performing them is done while training, you have no time for thoughts of maintain things like this in a SD situation (nor while sparring, play fighting and in comps), your intention is about defeating your opponent and getting out of it alive with little injury. Nothing is guaranteed nor promised, it's just about increasing your odds when the sh!t hits the fan on the street.

James

[sihing]

I've been saying for years now that adding elements of boxing/kickboxing to either finish your man or for getting close enough (safely) to a more wing chun oriented approach to striking and controlling from close range...is the way to go...
and the guy in black who was wearing a TWC shirt (although I personally don't know who he is)...he could have utilized TWC many times in that vid when he was getting close and connecting - or even before he actually connected with shots...but he didn't.

Not because such moves are un-usable...but because for whatever reason he didn't use them.

I have no disagreement with people learning things that help them move and function on the outside, boxing, kickboxing, MT whatever style that suits their needs. But sparring, or lining up with someone is a different game, which is what these two guys in the vid were doing. Both guys looked pretty natural in their movements, the TWC guy wasn't trying to maintain a style or look like what he does in class (hands out, like Rashun was doing with Dale), but of course the MMA pro is just better at this since he is a pro and spends way more time doing this game than the TWC guy. Sh!t he even let the guy punch him hard in the body, without thought. I give props to the TWC guy for sparring with him, that was probably a good experience for him.

So if this type of stuff is your thing, learn the outside game and how to be funtional from there. One might as well learn JKD, if they are already a WC practitioner, as that system teaches alot about that stuff. For SD you don't need to learn it, unless you like to call people out at bars and strut your stuff My take is this, most people like that range of fighting, it give them the ability to throw their punches but still far enough away to run away when they are attacked. Now if you step in a bit further, you take away their ability to strike as effectively and you make them uncomfortable, most will retreat to try to gain some distance, you maintain close in range and function from there. That's that general plan for WC practitioners, at least in my understanding.

James

[HumbleWCGuy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiYZnw-wfRY

It's great to see WCK guys lightly sparring with nonWCK fighters -- but when I see stuff like this, it makes me wonder: how does an experience like this make them feel about their WCK training? Do they realize that they are not moving like they train to move in WCK, they are not doing what they advocate doing with their theory? I mean, if they wanted to box and move like a boxer, wouldn't it make more sense to actually train and practice that?

I real question is, "where is the spit wck that you used to practice?" My answer is that I just don't know. I would only suggest that the sifu could have trapped more.

[t_niehoff]

WC will never "look" like WC VS other systems, unless it is trained, from the very beginning VS other systems.

Why then does boxing look likeboxing or MT look like MT even when they are not trained from the beginning against other "systems"?

Of course the very "look" of WC is debatable.
Sure everyone would love to be Donnie Yen in Ip Man, now THAT is WC !
LOL !

Thing is, have you ever seen WC "look" like WC outside of the kwoon?

What I mean by "look" like WCK is that you see the continuous expression of WCK movement-- the stuff you practice inthe forms, drills, dummy, etc.

The reason we don't see WCK movement outside the kwoon is because while people know the movements of WCK, they don't know how to use those movements in fighting.

Sure it is very hard to find WC vs anything other than WC and when we do it looks very little like how WC is trained, yet the same is NOT said about other MA such as MT, boxing, Judo, South Peruvian ass thumbing.

Why is that?

It goes back to how WCK is trained -- you don't learn/practice WCK in its fighting context, instead you learn/practice it in an unrealistic environment which doesn't provide that fighting context. Then you are given nonsensical theory by nonfighters to allegedly help you apply your WCK. Whereas the functional martial arts use a sparring plattform as a base from which to teach/learn/train so that they naturally get the context -- now their learning/training/doing is 1 to 1 to 1.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiYZnw-wfRY

It's great to see WCK guys lightly sparring with nonWCK fighters -- but when I see stuff like this, it makes me wonder: how does an experience like this make them feel about their WCK training? Do they realize that they are not moving like they train to move in WCK, they are not doing what they advocate doing with their theory? I mean, if they wanted to box and move like a boxer, wouldn't it make more sense to actually train and practice that?

You're too funny Terence. Bogdan wasn't doing WCK. He just wanted to kickbox with the guy to have some fun. Jeez . . .

[Phil Redmond]

I've been saying for years now that adding elements of boxing/kickboxing to either finish your man or for getting close enough (safely) to a more wing chun oriented approach to striking and controlling from close range...is the way to go...

and the guy in black who was wearing a TWC shirt (although I personally don't know who he is)...he could have utilized TWC many times in that vid when he was getting close and connecting - or even before he actually connected with shots...but he didn't.

Not because such moves are un-usable...but because for whatever reason he didn't use them.

Bogdan, the guy in the WC shirt is one of my Canadian students. He helps Sifu Ryan Kennedy teach in Toronto. btw, They have throwdowns there periodically. I think sanjuro_ronin knows about them.

[Phil Redmond]

People from many different disciplines participate:
http://www.torontowingchun.com/media...id=gakJgZGuGAA

[couch]

James nailed it with his post. He wrote all that so I don't have to.

[t_niehoff]

You're too funny Terence. Bogdan wasn't doing WCK. He just wanted to kickbox with the guy to have some fun. Jeez . . .

Yes, I KNOW Bogdon wasn't doing WCK. Now you say he just wanted to kickbox with the guy. It's makes me wonder why you label your video clips as you do.

Why would you up a clip of someone NOT doing WCK, but wearing a WCK "uniform", and describe it as "Sifu Bodgon doing some light sparring . . . " (why is it relevent that he is a sifu if what he shows doesn't pertain to WCK)?