Where is the WCK?

[Phil Redmond]

. . . .Also guessing that if you did kick his butt it wouldn't change his position on the matter.

But it would be so satisfying, especially since I'm 62 years old. If he beat me he'd know he was in a fight and he would see some WC. He keeps talking about fighting skilled fighters. Yeah, I know it was in the late 80's but I had fight with a pro kickboxer bent on wrecking me. I won that fight. It's not like I haven't competed against skilled people. No there are no videos but many people from back in the day know me for my fights. I also fought in the Fu Jow Pai full contact events that allowed knees, elbows, and no more than 2 or 3 strikes to an opponent on the ground. This was before MMA. What ever he sees in my clips I can do and so can lots of other people. If he come to the East coast I'm like him to see how we train. I'll even introduce him to the pro-boxer that trains and "spars" with us.

[YungChun]

But it would be so satisfying, especially since I'm 62 years old. If he beat me he'd know he was in a fight and he would see some WC. He keeps talking about fighting skilled fighters. Yeah, I know it was in the late 80's but I had fight with a pro kickboxer bent on wrecking me. I won that fight. It's not like I haven't competed against skilled people. No there are no videos but many people from back in the day know me for my fights. I also fought in the Fu Jow Pai full contact events that allowed knees, elbows, and no more than 2 or 3 strikes to an opponent on the ground. This was before MMA. What ever he sees in my clips I can do and so can lots of other people. If he come to the East coast I'm like him to see how we train. I'll even introduce him to the pro-boxer that trains and "spars" with us.

I'm sure if he was there he would be, oh, so, polite...

[Phil Redmond]

Unlike Terence I don't trash other people's Wing Chun. The reason why I don't is because when I was fighting and winning I wasn't using TWC. I was using the more "mainstream" YMWC. I only used TWC in my last few fights including the one against the pro kickboxer. My point is that is you train something well you can apply it. Terence talks about low percentage techniques and I agree with him. It would be a low percentage of people who can do Jackie Chan or Tony Jaa stunts. The same would go for Olympian gymnasts or famous guitarists. But the people who diligently train for these activities can do them. It would be a low percentage for me not to do simultaneous blocks/attacks because of my training. Of course my opponent's and my positioning won't allow me to do it all the time but I know I'm capable of a larger percentage of simultaneous blocks/strikes because I was trained that way under pressure of getting hit hard. I was introduced to being able to deal with random HARD attacks at Sifu Duncan Leung's school on Great Jones St. in NYC back in the 70's. There has to be someone on this forum who either knows or has heard of how realistic Duncan's school was. I'm drilling the NYC class to be able to compete right now. In fact we will be having some more full contact sparring in Spanish Harlem in April. There will also be even more amateur MMA fights in NJ. At the present MMA fights aren't legal in NY. That might change soon.
If anyone is interested in competing in MMA in NJ area let me know. Maybe Terence would agree to something like that so that he can show me how WCK doesn't work. I'm always a student and would appreciate his instruction.

[t_niehoff]

Unlike Terence I don't trash other people's Wing Chun.

Unlike Terence you don't seem to have critical thinking skills.

The reason why I don't is because when I was fighting and winning I wasn't using TWC. I was using the more "mainstream" YMWC. I only used TWC in my last few fights including the one against the pro kickboxer.

You were kickboxing, not doing WCK.

My point is that is you train something well you can apply it.

This is the sort of thing that tells me you are lost in fatnasy. That's simply not true. If it were, you'd see all kinds of things working in MMA, and you don't. It's not a matter of practice -- if what you are practicing isn't something that can work, no amount of practice will make it work. You can practice doding a bullet all you want, but you won't be able to apply it!

Terence talks about low percentage techniques and I agree with him. It would be a low percentage of people who can do Jackie Chan or Tony Jaa stunts. The same would go for Olympian gymnasts or famous guitarists. But the people who diligently train for these activities can do them.

Seriously, Phil, you don't even understand what a low percentage technique or move is. How can you practice MAs for 40 years and not?

A low percentage move or technique is one that NO MATTER HOW WELL TRAINED YOU ARE you won't be successful using except rarely. And that's typically because the timing is so difficult or it is so easily countered or etc.

It would be a low percentage for me not to do simultaneous blocks/attacks because of my training. Of course my opponent's and my positioning won't allow me to do it all the time but I know I'm capable of a larger percentage of simultaneous blocks/strikes because I was trained that way under pressure of getting hit hard.

If simul blocking and striking was high percentage, then you'd see it occurring in sparring quite often -- that's the definition of high percentage. The mere fact that you don't see it every "fighting" clip you've posted proves it is a low percentage move. Even when Rashun was fooling around with -- so the pressure was low -- he couldn't do it agaisnt Dale's strikes. If he can't do it when the pressure is low, do you think the ability will suddenly come to him when someone is trying to take his head off? '

I was introduced to being able to deal with random HARD attacks at Sifu Duncan Leung's school on Great Jones St. in NYC back in the 70's. There has to be someone on this forum who either knows or has heard of how realistic Duncan's school was. I'm drilling the NYC class to be able to compete right now. In fact we will be having some more full contact sparring in Spanish Harlem in April. There will also be even more amateur MMA fights in NJ. At the present MMA fights aren't legal in NY. That might change soon.
If anyone is interested in competing in MMA in NJ area let me know.

Why is it - WHY IS IT - that you SAY you can do this or that, and that I'm simply wrong, yet you can't show anyone that you can do it? I mean, Phil, you've posted a hundred videos to youtube -- yet not one shows anyone, not you or any of your students,able to do the things you say you can do or that you train to do in fighting. What we see is your guys NOT blocking and striking at the same time, NOT doing the entry technique, NOT using finger strikes, NOT moving to the blindside, NOT controlling the elbow, NOT facing the point of contact, NOT using the techniques you learn and train. Your own videos prove my point.

Maybe Terence would agree to something like that so that he can show me how WCK doesn't work. I'm always a student and would appreciate his instruction.

As I have said, your own videos prove that what you teach and train doesn't work -- you see it NOT working in the videos. You can't -- and won't -- see it when it is right before your eyes.

If you want good instruction, go to a good MMA gym and join.

[Frost]

Unlike Terence you don't seem to have critical thinking skills.



You were kickboxing, not doing WCK.



This is the sort of thing that tells me you are lost in fatnasy. That's simply not true. If it were, you'd see all kinds of things working in MMA, and you don't. It's not a matter of practice -- if what you are practicing isn't something that can work, no amount of practice will make it work. You can practice doding a bullet all you want, but you won't be able to apply it!



Seriously, Phil, you don't even understand what a low percentage technique or move is. How can you practice MAs for 40 years and not?

A low percentage move or technique is one that NO MATTER HOW WELL TRAINED YOU ARE you won't be successful using except rarely. And that's typically because the timing is so difficult or it is so easily countered or etc.



If simul blocking and striking was high percentage, then you'd see it occurring in sparring quite often -- that's the definition of high percentage. The mere fact that you don't see it every "fighting" clip you've posted proves it is a low percentage move. Even when Rashun was fooling around with -- so the pressure was low -- he couldn't do it agaisnt Dale's strikes. If he can't do it when the pressure is low, do you think the ability will suddenly come to him when someone is trying to take his head off? '



Why is it - WHY IS IT - that you SAY you can do this or that, and that I'm simply wrong, yet you can't show anyone that you can do it? I mean, Phil, you've posted a hundred videos to youtube -- yet not one shows anyone, not you or any of your students,able to do the things you say you can do or that you train to do in fighting. What we see is your guys NOT blocking and striking at the same time, NOT doing the entry technique, NOT using finger strikes, NOT moving to the blindside, NOT controlling the elbow, NOT facing the point of contact, NOT using the techniques you learn and train. Your own videos prove my point.



As I have said, your own videos prove that what you teach and train doesn't work -- you see it NOT working in the videos. You can't -- and won't -- see it when it is right before your eyes.

If you want good instruction, go to a good MMA gym and join.

ok so I have not checked out Phil’s clips (at work I can’t view them at the moment), question for those of you who have, is Terrance right or wrong, do his videos show him and his students pulling of fighting blocking and striking at the same time, the entry technique, finger strikes, moving to the blindside, controlling the elbow, facing the point of contact?

If they do show these things working in sparring then Terrance is wrong and they are not low percentage moves, if they don't show them then he is right.... can a more knowledgeable wing chun guy tell me it those things are present in the videos?

[t_niehoff]

ok so I have not checked out Phil’s clips (at work I can’t view them at the moment), question for those of you who have, is Terrance right or wrong, do his videos show him and his students pulling of fighting blocking and striking at the same time, the entry technique, finger strikes, moving to the blindside, controlling the elbow, facing the point of contact?

If they do show these things working in sparring then Terrance is wrong and they are not low percentage moves, if they don't show them then he is right.... can a more knowledgeable wing chun guy tell me it those things are present in the videos?

Here's Phil's channel

http://www.youtube.com/user/sifupr#p/u

go see for youself -- look at his guys fighting (like the lei tei fights), look at Rashun's clip with Dale, etc.

What you will get are excuses as to why you don't see these things -- there is always an excuse. But the reason for the excuses is they don't consistently work.

[Frost]

Here's Phil's channel

http://www.youtube.com/user/sifupr#p/u

go see for youself -- look at his guys fighting (like the lei tei fights), look at Rashun's clip with Dale, etc.

What you will get are excuses as to why you don't see these things -- there is always an excuse. But the reason for the excuses is they don't consistently work.

thanks i'll check it out at home, although i have to say i agree with you in that i have not seen what you talked about in any MMA or clips on youtube, but i'll wait until viewing phils before making judgement

[sanjuro_ronin]

ok so I have not checked out Phil’s clips (at work I can’t view them at the moment), question for those of you who have, is Terrance right or wrong, do his videos show him and his students pulling of fighting blocking and striking at the same time, the entry technique, finger strikes, moving to the blindside, controlling the elbow, facing the point of contact?

Context,
You won't see them done in the fashion they are demoed, no.
But you don't usually see the "picture perfect" demo moves done that way in a fight anyways, so looking for "that look" is a waste of time.

[Frost]

Context,
You won't see them done in the fashion they are demoed, no.
But you don't usually see the "picture perfect" demo moves done that way in a fight anyways, so looking for "that look" is a waste of time.

Ok i understand i should not see the picture perfect demo, but it should look like the demo shouldn't it, same body mechanics same basic movement if not as crisp
'

if i show someone the clinch, fighting for underhooks, escaping the plum etc it will still look simliar in a fight, maybe not as sharp but the same mechanics/body structure will be there will they not?

If i demo how to slip a cross and thow body and head hooks i return you will see th same technique in a fight, maybe not as clean but you will see it, just as you will see the mount and mount escapes drilled in class and used in a fight correct?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok i understand i should not see the picture perfect demo, but it should look like the demo shouldn't it, same body mechanics same basic movement if not as crisp
'

if i show someone the clinch, fighting for underhooks, escaping the plum etc it will still look simliar in a fight, maybe not as sharp but the same mechanics/body structure will be there will they not?

If i demo how to slip a cross and thow body and head hooks i return you will see th same technique in a fight, maybe not as clean but you will see it, just as you will see the mount and mount escapes drilled in class and used in a fight correct?

I tend to agree, when it comes to technique based systems.
When it comes to "principle" or "concept" based systems I have found that it doesn't matter what it "looks like" as long as the principle is their.
EX:
The typical simulteanous "block" and strike that we see demoed will rarely be seen, but the concept of it is seen, as an example in boxing, when a fighter slips a jab and counters with a lead to the body or a lead hook, the rear hand parry is "simultaneous" to the hook.
The concept is there, if not the look.

[Frost]

I tend to agree, when it comes to technique based systems.
When it comes to "principle" or "concept" based systems I have found that it doesn't matter what it "looks like" as long as the principle is their.
EX:
The typical simulteanous "block" and strike that we see demoed will rarely be seen, but the concept of it is seen, as an example in boxing, when a fighter slips a jab and counters with a lead to the body or a lead hook, the rear hand parry is "simultaneous" to the hook.
The concept is there, if not the look.

but surely it woule be to demonstrate the principles using techniques that actually work in a real situation?n would it not confuse the students less if you said here is the principle, and here is the principle in action, rather than here is the principle, here is the principle being demo'd... but wait you won't see it like this in a fight built here is an instance of it being used differently in a fight?

[sanjuro_ronin]

but surely it woule be to demonstrate the principles using techniques that actually work in a real situation?n would it not confuse the students less if you said here is the principle, and here is the principle in action, rather than here is the principle, here is the principle being demo'd... but wait you won't see it like this in a fight built here is an instance of it being used differently in a fight?

First off, don't call me Surely.
Second, yes I agree and it is one of the many issues I have with MANY MA and not just WC.

[Frost]

First off, don't call me Surely.
Second, yes I agree and it is one of the many issues I have with MANY MA and not just WC.

was thinking airplane as i typed that

fair enough no arguements from me

[sanjuro_ronin]

was thinking airplane as i typed that

fair enough no arguements from me

I have discussed a fair amount of times, the pros and cons of doing a MA that is "unique" in its look and what it brings to the table.
The fact that one brings something "different" and "uncommon" to a fight is not a bad thing, it is a very big plus, IF we can use it in a fight.
Now, VS scrubs almost anything will work, so it is irrelevant what anyone can pull off VS an untrained person.
We need to focus on what can be done VS a skilled and trained fighter.
In the end, only results matter.

[Edmund]

This is the sort of thing that tells me you are lost in fatnasy. That's simply not true. If it were, you'd see all kinds of things working in MMA, and you don't. It's not a matter of practice -- if what you are practicing isn't something that can work, no amount of practice will make it work. You can practice doding a bullet all you want, but you won't be able to apply it!

http://www.mma-core.com/gifs/_Lyoto_...8?gid=10000746


This was posted the last time you claimed that simultaneous stuff was impossible.

Machida uses the same move every time he fights.