Where is the WCK?

[YungChun]

Now, VS scrubs almost anything will work, so it is irrelevant what anyone can pull off VS an untrained person.
We need to focus on what can be done VS a skilled and trained fighter.
In the end, only results matter.

I think we underplay this... What is a scrub..?

T mocks results against drunks..and such...

Most folks who do this stuff are not looking to be Olympic level fighters...

The guy you see as a "scrub" may be a serious threat to someone else, a small woman, being the most obvious..a small man another and as we see in the real world sometimes even a threat to a big strong man or cop..

Alone on a deserted, dimly lit street, everyone is a real threat.

Not all students are going to be able to or willing to take their training to the level some folks talk about here.. That's just reality..

IOW, it's no small thing for some run of the mill, ordinary type folks to dispatch a "scrub" or any threat in the street especially when scared out of their wits.

The limitations of a smaller person, a mother of three, an older person, or just someone who is not game for hard core training, street fighting or full contact sport fighting must also be considered.

[SAAMAG]

http://www.mma-core.com/gifs/_Lyoto_...8?gid=10000746


This was posted the last time you claimed that simultaneous stuff was impossible.

Machida uses the same move every time he fights.

That's a good clip of what I would call a high percentage move...I suppose the most appropriate wing chun descriptor would be a pak-da, no?

Its funny, when I use wing chun in sparring, it works quite well most of the time. Though a majority of the time its pak da's against straight attacks, and tan-da's or something similar with more curved and hooking attacks. I always wonder why people say these aren't high percentage or aren't commonly seen. Trapping...in the complex ways we see in demo's simply won't occur against an even remotely aware person. That's idealistic, not realistic.

One thing though that I would mention, is that wing chun is great under certain conditions and specific ranges of combat...not in all scenarios or conditions. Using it where its useful and ditching it where its not is key.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . . . .You were kickboxing, not doing WCK.

This is the sort of thing that tells me you are lost in fatnasy. That's simply not true. If it were, you'd see all kinds of things working in MMA, and you don't. It's not a matter of practice -- if what you are practicing isn't something that can work, no amount of practice will make it work. You can practice doding a bullet all you want, but you won't be able to apply it!

Seriously, Phil, you don't even understand what a low percentage technique or move is. How can you practice MAs for 40 years and not?

A low percentage move or technique is one that NO MATTER HOW WELL TRAINED YOU ARE you won't be successful using except rarely. And that's typically because the timing is so difficult or it is so easily countered or etc.

If simul blocking and striking was high percentage, then you'd see it occurring in sparring quite often -- that's the definition of high percentage. The mere fact that you don't see it every "fighting" clip you've posted proves it is a low percentage move. Even when Rashun was fooling around with -- so the pressure was low -- he couldn't do it agaisnt Dale's strikes. If he can't do it when the pressure is low, do you think the ability will suddenly come to him when someone is trying to take his head off? '

Why is it - WHY IS IT - that you SAY you can do this or that, and that I'm simply wrong, yet you can't show anyone that you can do it? I mean, Phil, you've posted a hundred videos to youtube -- yet not one shows anyone, not you or any of your students,able to do the things you say you can do or that you train to do in fighting. What we see is your guys NOT blocking and striking at the same time, NOT doing the entry technique, NOT using finger strikes, NOT moving to the blindside, NOT controlling the elbow, NOT facing the point of contact, NOT using the techniques you learn and train. Your own videos prove my point.

As I have said, your own videos prove that what you teach and train doesn't work -- you see it NOT working in the videos. You can't -- and won't -- see it when it is right before your eyes.
If you want good instruction, go to a good MMA gym and join.

I used WCK in kickboxing events. At least I've posted clips off people testing their WCK in full contact. They're not perfect but they are trying against resisting opponents from other disciplines so what you say doesn't affect how we train. This is getting old and again without meeting me in person you've made another assumption base on some shorts clips. I'm not wasting my time with you unless you say you're heading East.
(I don't have to funds to travel like I think a Lawyer should. )

[t_niehoff]

I think we underplay this... What is a scrub..?

T mocks results against drunks..and such...

Most folks who do this stuff are not looking to be Olympic level fighters...

The guy you see as a "scrub" may be a serious threat to someone else, a small woman, being the most obvious..a small man another and as we see in the real world sometimes even a threat to a big strong man or cop..

Alone on a deserted, dimly lit street, everyone is a real threat.

Not all students are going to be able to or willing to take their training to the level some folks talk about here.. That's just reality..

IOW, it's no small thing for some run of the mill, ordinary type folks to dispatch a "scrub" or any threat in the street especially when scared out of their wits.

The limitations of a smaller person, a mother of three, an older person, or just someone who is not game for hard core training, street fighting or full contact sport fighting must also be considered.

A scrub is an unskilled or very-low level, unconditioned fighter. We all start out as scrubs. Some people never move beyond that stage.

You don't need to be olympic athletes -- this is just another excuse people use to not train. And, it is based on the incorrect premise that there is some "other way" of fighting for people who don't want to or can't put in the hard work in training like a fighter. The truth is that to develop solid, fundamental fighting skills ANYONE has to do what all fighters do, and if you don't want to or can't pay that price, and do that work, you can't develop the skill. It's the same with any sport or athletic activity.

[t_niehoff]

http://www.mma-core.com/gifs/_Lyoto_...8?gid=10000746

This was posted the last time you claimed that simultaneous stuff was impossible.

Machida uses the same move every time he fights.

That's not a simultaneous block and strike. Are you blind? If you block with one action then when you've completed that action, begin to strike, how can you call that simultaneous blocking and striking? (unless you are redefining the word "simultaneous" to mean after)-- that is an example of blocking (actually, of batting a punch away) THEN striking. Yes, people do THAT all the time.

[t_niehoff]

I tend to agree, when it comes to technique based systems.
When it comes to "principle" or "concept" based systems I have found that it doesn't matter what it "looks like" as long as the principle is their.
EX:
The typical simulteanous "block" and strike that we see demoed will rarely be seen, but the concept of it is seen, as an example in boxing, when a fighter slips a jab and counters with a lead to the body or a lead hook, the rear hand parry is "simultaneous" to the hook.
The concept is there, if not the look.

The problem with all that is the concept/principle IS the movement, they are not two different things. If you don't see WCK movement, you don't see WCK concepts in action. That's why the whole "concept-based" premise is nonsense. There is no such thing -- that notion was created by the theoretical nonfighters. Did you ever wonder why there isn't concept-based tennis or concept-based swimming or concept-based cycling? If we talked about sport or athletic activities that way, we'd immediately recognize how silly that is.

[t_niehoff]

I used WCK in kickboxing events.

No, what you did was kickboxing while occassionally (rarely) throwing in a WCK technique.

At least I've posted clips off people testing their WCK in full contact. They're not perfect but they are trying against resisting opponents from other disciplines so what you say doesn't affect how we train.

Phil, you just don't get it. It's not that they "aren't perfect" -- who the f##k is? BJJ fighters aren't perfect, boxers aren't perfect, MMA fighters aren't perfect. BUT you can see them doing the things they train to do in their fighting as opposed to what you guys are doing -- which is NOT doing what you train (and say) to do.

Fundamental skills (in any sport or fighting art) are by definition high-percentage. That's because what makes them fundamental skills is that without them you can't play the game. So, whenever you play the game, you will see those skills. High percentage. If the things you teach/train were fundamental WCK skills, they would be high percentage, and you would see them whenever your guys fought -- you couldn't help but see them. But you don't see them in your fighting (playing the game). That OUGHT to tell you something.

The reason it isn't telling you anything is because you've closed off your critical thinking, and so your ability to see things objectively, with your TWC dogma. You are a true believer and to such an extent that you can't see reality when it is right before your eyes.

This is getting old and again without meeting me in person you've made another assumption base on some shorts clips. I'm not wasting my time with you unless you say you're heading East.
(I don't have to funds to travel like I think a Lawyer should. )

The fact that you and your students can't do the things you teach and train to do in fighting should be all the evidence you need. If that doesn't get through to you, how will me visiting you make you see reality? Would my presence suddenly make you realize, "gosh, he's right, we really don't ever do these things?"

[Edmund]

That's not a simultaneous block and strike. Are you blind? If you block with one action then when you've completed that action, begin to strike, how can you call that simultaneous blocking and striking? (unless you are redefining the word "simultaneous" to mean after)-- that is an example of blocking THEN striking. Yes, people do THAT all the time.

You truly believe it's not simultaneous? You are one aspergian nutcase.


Honestly WTF? It was not one action after another.

[Phil Redmond]

No, what you did was kickboxing while occassionally (rarely) throwing in a WCK technique. . . . .

This sentence really proves how you make assumptions without first hand evidence. You were not at my fights yet you know how I fought.

The reason it isn't telling you anything is because you've closed off your critical thinking, and so your ability to see things objectively, with your TWC dogma. You are a true believer and to such an extent that you can't see reality when it is right before your eyes. . . . .

Did you read the post where I said in most of my fights I DIDN'T use TWC?
As far as dogma goes, I'm a martial artist before I'm a WC practitioner. WCK is simply one of the tools in my tool box.

The fact that you and your students can't do the things you teach and train to do in fighting should be all the evidence you need. . .

The clips of our guys in their first Le Tai fights prove you wrong. But of course since you don't know how we trained them first hand you probably won't see how they did there best to apply WCK pricinples. The bong sao round punch is one good example. There are many others

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . . . . . The fact that you and your students can't do the things you teach and train to do in fighting should be all the evidence you need. If that doesn't get through to you, how will me visiting you make you see reality? Would my presence suddenly make you realize, "gosh, he's right, we really don't ever do these things?"

You wrote; " Phil, you just don't get it. It's not that they "aren't perfect" -- who the f##k is? BJJ fighters aren't perfect, boxers aren't perfect, MMA fighters aren't perfect. BUT you can see them doing the things they train to do in their fighting as opposed to what you guys are doing -- which is NOT doing what you train (and say) to do."

Well I see them doing the best they can to use what they were taught against resisting opponents. After all it was their first fight outside of the school.
Lei Ta training 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7NCv...eature=related

Lei Tai training 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZDkPpWYYoI

Lei Tai training 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyQH4...eature=related

Here they tried what they learned in class:.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1bSkRY3iWI

Fight highlights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGFOJ...eature=related

But of course you'll see what you want to see and we all know that here.
I don't believe I'm still replying to your dogma.

[weakstudent]

maybe his students aren't good enough to do those things all the time, yet i guess thats why they are learning. my question to T is what do you mean by skilled sparring partners ? just need an example, i spar with a guy named sean obasi wing chun brother, fights mma we go light but **** he strong agressive and is learning bjj so he is always taking me down. he has a couple of videos on youtube check them out. my wing chun really sucks but im a beginner, hahaha but i see your point about about being able to apply it. so far pak sau, bong sau straight blast is the technigues that i notice come out as of right now. and we all have to remember our wing chun will look nothing like our Sifu's wing chun

by the way i love the back and forth, keep it up im learning a lots

[weakstudent]

hey just finished reading the rest, a scrub well that would be me, unconditioned hahahaha i get winded after a min. but im working on it., to many bluts in my youth, but for real lets talk about wing chun things like helping beginners out like me, i am a believer of every little bit helps.

[weakstudent]

That's not a simultaneous block and strike. Are you blind? If you block with one action then when you've completed that action, begin to strike, how can you call that simultaneous blocking and striking? (unless you are redefining the word "simultaneous" to mean after)-- that is an example of blocking (actually, of batting a punch away) THEN striking. Yes, people do THAT all the time.

i have to agree it looks more like a one two combo,

[Knifefighter]

You truly believe it's not simultaneous? You are one aspergian nutcase.


Honestly WTF? It was not one action after another.

It sure was one action after another... a stop hit with the front hand followed by a cross with the rear hand.

[Edmund]

It sure was one action after another... a stop hit with the front hand followed by a cross with the rear hand.

Known forum trolls having a lovefest.
Keep hugging yourselves while bashing Phil.

It would be described in WC terms as Pak da: Something Terence previously claimed could NEVER work against a quality opponent from his infinite experience at sucking at MMA.