Where is the WCK?

[duende]

Yeah... I realized I didn't describe my analogy thoroughly enough. If you toss up in the air different weight stones they will land at different times. This is because the lighter rocks will travel higher into the air than the heavier rocks.

Anyways. My pos wasn't about physics or gravity really. It was about rocks landing as a scattered mass... And that event representing a moment in time. Not a simultaneously exact instance. But a grouped moment nonetheless.

[Phil Redmond]

Yeah... I realized I didn't describe my analogy thoroughly enough. If you toss up in the air different weight stones they will land at different times. This is because the lighter rocks will travel higher into the air than the heavier rocks.

Anyways. My pos wasn't about physics or gravity really. It was about rocks landing as a scattered mass... And that event representing a moment in time. Not a simultaneously exact instance. But a grouped moment nonetheless.

NP, WC brother.

[YungChun]

Many moves in WCK can be used on the outside (no pre-contact) and from inside (with contact)... The inside is normally higher % and the outside moves are generally lower %... This is so simply because without contact you have more of a timing problem, using only the eyes to judge with..

A pak da rarely happens at EXACTLY the same time although it can..(in theory)

There is also more than just one beat timing and two beat timing.. There can be 1 and 1/4, 1 and 1/2, etc... If you pak/da and the da is coming a 10th of a second after the pak then it's close enough to be called "simultaneous" but it isn't.. The obstacle has to be removed before the da can move on to the target..

And for the record, most folks will have a very tough time doing pak/da successfully against a snappy jab done by a good boxer...who is fresh....if you reach for it, he will simply angle and do a double jab and hit you with the second one, or some variation on that theme.

[Frost]

I think there is a part of training for self defense that is on even footing with training to fight but doesn't get as much press. I will also say it is not something taught a lot at your traditional MA schools either.

It has to do with what you can do to avoid putting yourself in situations where you will need to fight. It is simple stuff that a lot of people don't pay attention to. Things like avoiding places with large amounts of testosterone and alcohol. Don't walk down the deserted alley way by yourself. Pay attention to your surroundings. If you are going out drinking or clubbing go out with a group and stick together. Avoid doing stupid stuff that makes you a target.

Now if you spent more time training you would have less time for putting yourself in potentially dangerous situations.

That having been said if you are going to train to fight, do it right and avoid the fantasy fu schools.

Very well put, my grappling and MMA coach is one of the few guys in the UK that is able to teach Geoff Thompsons self defence system and when he does teach this most of the class is about avoiding such places and situations, about using verbal skills to que yourself into the right mind set (and if that does not work hit them hard fast and put them down)

[INicba]

Yeah... I realized I didn't describe my analogy thoroughly enough. If you toss up in the air different weight stones they will land at different times. This is because the lighter rocks will travel higher into the air than the heavier rocks.

Anyways. My pos wasn't about physics or gravity really. It was about rocks landing as a scattered mass... And that event representing a moment in time. Not a simultaneously exact instance. But a grouped moment nonetheless.

Acctualy, you were correct the first time. As Phill has said, objects fall to the ground (regardless of their weight and size) at the same time only when there is no air resistance (in a vacuum).

You can try this out by dropping a feather and a bowling ball in our atmospehere. The bigger the diffrences in weight, object size and distance travelled the bigger the diffrence in hitting the ground when dropped simultaneously. But, that is not true in vacuum; there you can drop a feather and a truck and they'll fall at the same time.

You guys are probably confused because of the well known storry of Galileo Galiei dropping two very diffrent weights from the top of the Leaning tower of Pisa. He probably never did that experiment, taking into account the things we know today.
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My WCK instructor encouraged simultaneous attack and defence, but I would agree that in reality it is low percentage. At least in as the idea most of you are discussing. You can make it a bit higher percentage by dedicating decades of your life training for that goal, but I don't think thats very practical nor necesery. I think the focus should be on developing fighting relevant atributes, not chasing some ideas of what your think you should be doing. Meaning that feats such as a succsesfully landed simultaneous attack and defence come from superior fighting atributes, not from excepting the concept as your own.

I like Niehoffs despriton of WCK being about controling the opponent while hitting him. With control, in this context, being the ability to prevent the oponent from attacking you. Not the ability to immobilize the opponent or to move him arround at will. Of course, when controling you shouldn't be chasing hands. In WCK you should chase the center. But you should chase the center while not being hit. Again the same idea but diffrent wording. In this sense, WCK is about simultaneous attack and defence. But this doesnt mean that everytime you prevent the opponent from landing the blow you MUST hit him. It just means that when you hit him you should be aiming at preventing him of hitting you at the same time with postioning and angling. Not just trading punches.

[Knifefighter]

I like Niehoffs despriton of WCK being about controling the opponent while hitting him. With control, in this context, being the ability to prevent the oponent from attacking you. Not the ability to immobilize the opponent or to move him arround at will.

Here's the problem with controlling and hitting at the same time while in a standing position. Other than a few exceptions, such as the MT plum or being able to hold your opponent's clothing, controlling and hitting at the same time is generally an relatively ineffective way to fight. When you control, you lose power in your hits. When you hit, you lose your ability to control.

The best place to both control and hit is on the ground.

[INicba]

Here's the problem with controlling and hitting at the same time while in a standing position. Other than a few exceptions, such as the MT plum or being able to hold your opponent's clothing, controlling and hitting at the same time is generally an relatively ineffective way to fight.

You can't realy say that controling while hitting is an ineffective way to fight, per se. Maybe you mean that it's to hard to do to be realisticly applicable? Or that the WCK clinching skillset threw which a WC practitioner is trying to control while hitting is too incomplete to be effective in fighting in general?

When you control, you lose power in your hits. When you hit, you lose your ability to control.

It might be we're not talking about the same thing. Can you give me an example of what you mean here?

The control I speak of is achieved by redirecting and moving your body in such a way that you don't get hit. It isn't something you do and then you can't be hit in that position and you are then suddenly free to do damage. It's more a form of dynamic adaptability not a static position. It's something you should strive at.

While the control I speak of is applied to clinching, grapling and in-fighting I will give you a crude example to explain what I mean: -When I did boxing I was thought slipping punches. It isn't something that'll work everytime but again, something to strive at in contrast to just exchanging blows. You can slip a straight cross punch while checking it with your right hand when you are moving in at the same time to counteratack with a left jab of your own. This is a crude example in which you are in control while hitting by my definition.

[SAAMAG]

Known forum trolls having a lovefest.
Keep hugging yourselves while bashing Phil.

It would be described in WC terms as Pak da: Something Terence previously claimed could NEVER work against a quality opponent from his infinite experience at sucking at MMA.

Wow...this thread is on fire. I'd agree with Ed moreso. It's close call really. If you look even remotely close, he sees the punch coming well before execution, starts the slapping motion to redirect the punch and right as his pak touches the arm, his punch starts to fire. The redirection continues and the punch connects. The punch and slap don't have to make contact at the exact same time to be considered pak-da--just that the motions work together at the same time to achieve the end result of hitting without getting hit.

Remember that while the training will have the hit and slap occur ideally at the same time, rarely does it happen that way because people never perform as ideally as they do in training against people who aren't "truly" trying to hit you. Such is the case here.

I don't wanna know how one could misinterprete an open hand slap with an intercepting punch.

[anerlich]

Wow...this thread is on fire. I'd agree with Ed moreso. It's close call really. If you look even remotely close, he sees the punch coming well before execution, starts the slapping motion to redirect the punch and right as his pak touches the arm, his punch starts to fire. The redirection continues and the punch connects. The punch and slap don't have to make contact at the exact same time to be considered pak-da--just that the motions work together at the same time to achieve the end result of hitting without getting hit.

That's exactly what I saw.

[SAAMAG]

But moreso onto the point...

the idea of simultaneous attack and defense is not so uncommon as some people think. The thing is that it's not something that is applicable in ALL scenarios, just like many other tactics.

You base your strategy and tactics on the strengths and weakness of your opponent, your environment, and so forth. That's why you can't simply have one system or strategy for all situations.

And THAT's why you don't see the WCK in all fighting clips. You wouldn't see it if I ever made any fighting clips either. It's because as a person flows from one range to the next, there are tactics and moves that have been proven to work better and more often than others. Individuals who wanted or needed to get good at one particular range or type of fighting would focus on those ranges of areas of combat, hence the development of specialized styles. All are part of and belong in combat, and none should be excluded or idolized.

[Edmund]

A pak da rarely happens at EXACTLY the same time although it can..(in theory)

There is also more than just one beat timing and two beat timing.. There can be 1 and 1/4, 1 and 1/2, etc... If you pak/da and the da is coming a 10th of a second after the pak then it's close enough to be called "simultaneous" but it isn't.. The obstacle has to be removed before the da can move on to the target..

You seem to have a similar definition that simultaneous = instantaneous.

Simultaneous doesn't mean in the same instant.
If both hands are performing actions together, they're simultaneous.

For pak da both hands are in motion, therefore it's a simultaneous attack and defence.

e.g. Simultaneous applause isn't everyone clapping their hands exactly in time with each other. It's just people all clapping.

[YungChun]

You seem to have a similar definition that simultaneous = instantaneous.

Simultaneous doesn't mean in the same instant.
If both hands are performing actions together, they're simultaneous.

For pak da both hands are in motion, therefore it's a simultaneous attack and defence.

e.g. Simultaneous applause isn't everyone clapping their hands exactly in time with each other. It's just people all clapping.

If the point of your post was to redefine the meaning of the term I would say you haven't.. At least not according to my friend Merriam..

Main Entry: si·mul·ta·neous
Pronunciation: \ˌsī-məl-ˈtā-nē-əs, -nyəs also ˌsi-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin simul at the same time + English -taneous (as in instantaneous) — more at same
Date: circa 1660

1 : existing or occurring at the same time : exactly coincident
2 : satisfied by the same values of the variables <simultaneous equations>
synonyms see contemporary

— si·mul·ta·ne·i·ty \-tə-ˈnē-ə-tē, -ˈnā-\ noun

— si·mul·ta·neous·ly \-ˈtā-nē-əs-lē, -nyəs-\ adverb

— si·mul·ta·neous·ness noun

[YungChun]

controlling and hitting at the same time is generally an relatively ineffective way to fight.

If you don't know how to do it, it is.. Folks do it instinctively, many arts train it.

When you control, you lose power in your hits. When you hit, you lose your ability to control.

If you don't understand WCK mechanics and techniques then sure. Moreover, there is a time for hitting and a time for finishing.. A boxer's jab is not nearly as powerful as some other punches, but the jab is a vital tool.

WCK mechanics are designed to offer power and control.. The structure and mechanics used--facing--using both hands/arms as one, etc, allow for this...

The mechanics of the striking is quite powerful and some strikes can generate more power than others.. The linear nature of the art, the basic striking in the system puts the entire body behind each shot.. I can generate more power than my fists can withstand by doing so... which is why we also have open hands, more than one kind of strike, elbows, kicks, etc..

A good understanding of the mechanics and tools would help....

The best place to both control and hit is on the ground.

Of course you think so..

The ground also has a habit of allowing folks to brace their heads on the ground, supported by the ground..

Standing, the striker can and will cause a more pronounced whiplash effect on his standing opponent's head, more easily than on the ground..

The standing striker can generate more power from the legs/body than when on the ground.

You prefer the ground..fine... Some prefer to stand...

[Edmund]

If the point of your post was to redefine the meaning of the term I would say you haven't.. At least not according to my friend Merriam..

I'm just using the word correctly. See simultaneous applause example.
Is everyone's claps exactly coincident?

[YungChun]

I'm just using the word correctly. See simultaneous applause example.
Is everyone's claps exactly coincident?

I cited the dictionary... LMAO..!

Why not argue with Merriam?