Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 79

Thread: Qi and Spirit?

  1. #1

    Post Qi and Spirit?

    Greetings!
    This is my first post, but I've been reading the forum for about six months now, and appreciating the quality of discussion in general.
    I'll warn you that it's a long and slightly difficult post; but I hope it will be useful.

    Judging by various posts and articles from all kinds of sources, I am not the only one confused about qi, and what exactly it is meant to mean.

    In most martial arts uses of the word, it seems superfluous. That is, if someone says 'you form an intent, your intent moves your qi, and your qi moves your body' it seems to many that the qi part is unnecessary.
    From our own experience, and indeed from modern biology, it seems sufficient to say 'your intent moves your body directly'.

    I'm sure this is a familiar issue to you all, but I hope to bring something new (or rather, old) to the discussion. So please bear with me.

    Firstly, many have pointed out that when qi was commonly accepted, there was a lack of modern biological understanding of the body. This implies that qi is simply an anachronistic concept. Yet nobody here wishes to believe that these ancient masters and gong fu men would waste their time on something that wasn't having an actual effect.

    So some people try to find the biological equivalent of qi, suggesting that the concept of 'qi' was invented to explain the subjective experience of enhanced blood flow, increased oxygen, or some kind of neurological effect - perhaps relating to proprioception. In other words, they try to reduce qi to a modern biological level.

    This reductionist approach has been used in the west for a long time. It is a powerful approach because it forces us to get rid of unnecessary concepts and theories. But is 'qi' simply a case of ancient people trying to 'fill in the blanks' in their knowledge of biology?

    To try to answer this question, I decided to look at the western equivalent of qi, and to see how this concept was interpreted by western philosophy prior to the rise of biological reductionism.

    The Western equivalent of qi is, I believe, 'spirit'.
    There are two points in favour of this link: firstly, both qi and spirit have an original meaning of air or breath, yet both refer now to something more abstract and mysterious:
    http://afpc.asso.fr/wengu/wg/zhendic...q=%AE%F0&as=b5
    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=spirit

    Secondly, spirit has suffered in the same way as qi from the reductionism of modern science.
    This does not mean that 'qi' and 'spirit' always mean exactly the same thing, but it suggests that they play a similar role in Chinese and Western culture.

    You might disagree that qi and spirit have any kind of equivalence, but nevertheless, I think we can profit from understanding what has happened to 'spirit' in a western context.


    If we imagine living in a world without scientific reductionism, where we have a fresh view of all the objects around us, there is no immediate reason to try to break things down to their component parts or

    basic elements. (reductionism is exactly the kind of view that says 'water is really just hydrogen and oxygen combined' for example).
    But it would occur to us pretty quickly that there is a difference between living and non-living things.

    Without thinking about oxygen, the respiratory system, and all of that; we would notice that the main difference between living and non-living things, is breath. 'Spiritus' 'Pneuma' and 'Ruah' are respectively the Latin, Greek, and Hebrew words for breath.

    Now, for us as modern people, we view breath simply as a biological process for obtaining oxygen and expelling carbon dioxide. For us, breath is not mysterious. But if you could forget your biological knowledge for a moment, you would see that breath is very mysterious. For a pre-modern man, breath would seem to be the most obvious sign of life. In other words, when this human thing is alive, it
    contracts and expands almost constantly. When it ceases this, it dies.

    But pre-modern humans were not stupid. If I hold my breath, I do not die (though I will have to breathe again soon). Also, I may be killed by methods that do not directly extinguish my breath.

    Clearly, breath was the effect of something else, something that gave us life. 'Breath' therefore became synonymous with the mysterious cause of life within us....the thing that seemed to disappear when we died....the animating principle.

    In a western context, when people talk about 'spirit' they are clearly not talking about breath. Yet breath is the closest thing to the animating principle that we can observe, hence the Latin, Greek and Hebrew terms, as well as (arguably) the Chinese and Indian terms (prana), all evolve from air or breath to mean something more subtle.

    This is the first and most basic level of understanding what spirit is. From this point of view, spirit is the life-giving or animating principle in a human being.

    If we stick with that point for now, we can see the possibility that the Chinese developed the concept of qi along the same lines as the western spirit.
    In other words, qi is the 'animating principle' in a human being.

    What does this mean?
    It means that qi refers in a 'holistic' sense to whatever it is in a human being that makes them alive and animate. The fact that we move, breathe, eat, and sleep, is all due to this animating principle.

    Qi Gong is therefore literally the skill derived from working with this animating principle.
    The exercises that constitute qi gong can therefore be expected to make us more 'alive'.

    This concept of qi is not reducible to biological systems, because qi refers to the complete workings of those systems!
    Biology comes from the greek 'Bios' - 'life' and 'logia' - 'study of'. Biology studies the effects or the components of qi/spirit/pneuma/ the animating principle.

    Modern science attempts to reduce everything to its component parts, but this can be a hindrance when we look at something like qi gong and try to understand which particular biological system is being enhanced. The answer must be 'all of them', or at least, that is the intent behind it.

    From this point of view, a person with more qi or more spirit should literally be 'more alive' than someone with less qi or spirit. This is not a cause and effect relationship, like having more iron in one's diet causes one to be more healthy in certain respects.....rather, it is a descriptive definition: more qi actually means more alive.

    Now, in case it seems that I've taken the mystery out of it, be aware how prone we are to reducing life to its component parts. Ask yourself - is a human life only the sum of its biological systems? or is it more than the sum of these parts? And could the ancient masters have discerned exercises to make us more alive, quite distinct from every modern method such as 'ordinary' exercise and a good diet?

    I have reason to believe that we are more than the sum of our biological parts, and in this context, qi or spirit really is more than just a primitive biology.

    I'll leave it here for now, but there are still important questions and problems that need to be addressed, including: why the concept of qi is sometimes extended to include inanimate objects, and whether this can be reconciled with the concept of qi in human beings.

    Also, I haven't taken the conflict between reductionism and qi/spirit to its ultimate conclusion. But I can address these in a subsequent post if anyone is interested.

    But I'll finish by returning to the original issue: ' your intent moves your qi, and your qi moves your body' - does this make any more sense now? According to what I have discussed above, qi is not something that will ever be discovered in between the motor cortex and the muscles of your body. Rather, as the animating principle, it is responsible for all aspects of your being alive.

    The statement above about qi (which I paraphrased roughly from other sources) suggests that the level of our qi can be much more profound and highly cultivated, such that it moves with our intent. In other words, we move with our whole 'aliveness', and hence the entirety of our biological systems are coordinated also.

    We are accustomed to thinking about the difference between someone throwing a punch that is disconnected from their body, versus someone whose punch is connected to their whole body. Well, if we applied the concept of qi to that dichotomy, we would say that the 'connected' person is combining their intent with their qi much more effectively. It's like the difference between a half-hearted punch and one that has your whole 'life' or being behind it.

    According to this view, when someone talks about feeling the qi, or moving the qi, they are really talking about the effects of qi - which means the effects of being more 'alive'.
    This allows us to resolve to some degree the reductionist dilemma. Eg. when someone says 'the qi sinks into the bones' and then explains that as 'if you practice with proper connection and alignment, your bones will slowly become stronger' then we may be tempted to think 'ah, so qi just means having proper connection and alignment', then discard 'qi' as a redundant concept.

    But in fact, 'qi' encapsulates all the changes that we will notice when we are more 'alive'; and this is something for which we do not know the real limits. Perhaps when we are more 'alive' we heal much faster, perceive things more accurately, have much greater strength and speed, and better coordination between our minds and bodies? Perhaps we feel more alive too, to the extent that we could say 'yeah, i feel qi when i practice'?

    Thanks for reading.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    964
    I liked the spirit definition link.

    Here's a bit of info on Qi and spirit as I know it:

    Qi is the dynamic influences between two relatively opposite aspects (Yin and Yang) of a whole.

    If we keep our level of magnification at the cosmological level, Yin is the earth and Yang is the heavens. There are even two famous sayings: "between Yin and Yang there is Qi and its laws;" "between heaven and earth there is man and his laws."

    Qi is all of the possible dynamic influences between the two.

    Usually, it's not very useful to talk about Qi by itself. Generally it's better to talk about a PART of Qi. For instance, we could talk specifically about the dynamic influences of the Heavens: this would be talking about the Yang Qi. Or, we could talk about the dynamic influences of earth: this would be talking about the Yin Qi.

    The True Qi of life, or Zhen Qi, refers to the combined life-giving influences of nature and nurture: our biology and our environment. We can again talk about specific parts of this Qi. There are different ways of categorizing Zhen Qi but for now, I'll use the model of Jing (yin, essence,) Qi and Shen (yang, spirit.)

    Jing is our biology (nature.) Shen is our acquired influences (nurture.) Jing Qi is the influence of our biology and needs. Shen Qi is the influence of our acquired influences and desires.

    Ideally, we want Jing Qi and Shen Qi, or Yin Qi and Yang Qi, to work together to promote health. When they work together, we can say that the Qi is flowing smoothly.
    "It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own." -Cicero

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    local
    Posts
    4,200
    when i read "spirit" or the "breath of the lord" or some other similar words in the bible, it automatically registers as chi/qi/prana, which ultimately makes the bible a much more interesting historical piece of work to learn from.

  4. #4
    uki: I definitely agree with you. Nowadays we only use 'spirit' in contexts like "where's your Christmas spirit?" which doesn't really help us understand biblical phrases like "blessed are the poor in spirit"...
    ...but if I'm right about 'spirit' then "poor in spirit" might imply something like the daoist concept of weakness and dependence....ie. powerful and self-driven people do not tend to discover the way.


    Xiao3 Meng4: that's some very intriguing metaphysics. I think there are lots of parallels with the Thomist metaphysics I'm trying to study at the moment; which makes sense, since both Chinese and Western philosophers were trying to understand the same reality.

    Usually, it's not very useful to talk about Qi by itself.
    Agreed. The same applies to 'spirit' I think. We can only point to spirit/qi in humans because it is so distinct from our bodies/matter. But in reality, even the material world is composed of spiritual 'principles' ie. 'different parts of qi'. It's like talking about matter. 'matter' doesn't exist by itself, only different parts or types of matter.

    Yin is the earth and Yang is the heavens. There are even two famous sayings: "between Yin and Yang there is Qi and its laws;" "between heaven and earth there is man and his laws."
    Qi is all of the possible dynamic influences between the two.
    There's a nice correlation in Thomist metaphysics, where he writes about the Potential principle and the Actualising principle. These are two spiritual principles that can be observed or discerned at different levels. For example, all material objects are composed of 'First Matter' which is the principle of pure potential, and a 'substantial form' which actualises the potential. When I read this, I immediately thought of the receptive and creative principles, which are identified with Yin and Yang.

    From the outside, Chinese metaphysics seems unnecessarily complex; but having read into Thomist metaphysics, I realised that the complexity is necessary to satisfactorily understand everything.

    What you've described with Jing and Shen could be usefully compared to Aquinas' theories about human nature. For example, a human being has a soul, which is their spiritual essence. But the soul is a diad - composed of two parts - one part is configured as pure spirit, which allows us to have spiritual faculties such as intellect and will. The other part actualises or configures matter to give us a body. According to this theory, all human souls are identical, but they draw on different matter (ie. our different heritage) to create our bodies, which individuate us.

    So in terms of the soul itself, we could say that it has a 'yin' and a 'yang' component or function; a potential and an actualising principle. This is not conclusive, of course, but I hope to get better acquainted with both theories, to see if understanding one helps me understand the other.

    BTW, is the cosmology you've described drawn from any specific school or tradition?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    local
    Posts
    4,200
    Quote Originally Posted by ZouMaKanHua View Post
    ie. powerful and self-driven people do not tend to discover the way.
    yet these qualities also manifest after discovering the way... look around at some folks on their path - can you move them?? would you want to try and force them from their path??

    nice thread.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    DFW
    Posts
    773
    Quote Originally Posted by uki View Post
    yet these qualities also manifest after discovering the way... look around at some folks on their path - can you move them?? would you want to try and force them from their path??

    nice thread.
    (This is a very important life-long question for me):
    What are the consequences of forcing someone from their path?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Whippany NJ, USA
    Posts
    1,552
    Quote Originally Posted by kfson View Post
    (This is a very important life-long question for me):
    What are the consequences of forcing someone from their path?
    But that would mean that this is all just a movie that already happened and so nothing can be changed or altered.

    We have free will otherwise we are just robots, or more like The Sims game, just characters in some entity's 3-D video game.

    This is no predefined path.
    Some people shoot an arrow without looking and they wind up wherever they wind up.
    Some people shoot an arrow at a specific target, and whatever it takes to get there, they finally wind up at the destination of their choosing (the target).
    My Martial Arts articles archive:

    http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/index.htm

    Shaolin Qigong / Neigong Healing & Self Defense Programs and Seminars:

    http://www.jindaolife.com
    http://www.bgtent.com/CMAQigongSchool/index.html

    Qigong Program: http://www.bgtent.com/CMAQigongSchool/QigongProgram.htm
    Chinese Martial Art Program: http://www.bgtent.com/CMAQigongSchoo...ArtProgram.htm


  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by kfson View Post
    (This is a very important life-long question for me):
    What are the consequences of forcing someone from their path?
    Hi kfson,

    You sound like you are still a young man, those of us who have lived a bit longer have come to realize that the path you think you are on is most likely not the path are actually on.

    It isn't what life gives you that defines your path, it is what you do with what you are given. If it appears a person has been forced off their path, the error is not that the former path is no longer followed, the error is that lack of realization that they are NEVER off the path in the first place. The Path is wherever you ARE!!

    Sometime it appears we have a choice, sometimes it appears we do not have a choice of what occurs outwardly within the world system of jobs, material objects, accidents, illnesses, etc. But we always have the choice to decide for ourselves how we will face what occurs materially!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    local
    Posts
    4,200
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    But we always have the choice to decide for ourselves how we will face what occurs materially!
    yet is experiencing the power to choose, nothing more than experiencing a life of pre-destiny and fate?? on one hand we believe we choose in a seemingly random universe and on the other we have an ultimate divine plan... it's a yin and yang of conceptual ideas. i personally believe that everything is pre-determined and we simply live out the expression of it... yet one can take it even further and say that we choose to experience the life we are living before we were born into it, which is the best way in choosing which life lessons we will learn on our spiritual journey, by experiencing them on a humanistic level.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    DFW
    Posts
    773
    Quote Originally Posted by uki View Post
    yet is experiencing the power to choose, nothing more than experiencing a life of pre-destiny and fate?? on one hand we believe we choose in a seemingly random universe and on the other we have an ultimate divine plan... it's a yin and yang of conceptual ideas. i personally believe that everything is pre-determined and we simply live out the expression of it... yet one can take it even further and say that we choose to experience the life we are living before we were born into it, which is the best way in choosing which life lessons we will learn on our spiritual journey, by experiencing them on a humanistic level.
    Why is the humanistic level so important?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    local
    Posts
    4,200
    Quote Originally Posted by kfson View Post
    Why is the humanistic level so important?
    extreme experience of emotions... like fine detail experience - blunt and in your face.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Midgard
    Posts
    10,852
    ya, really nice thread here. i dont have anything to contribute at this time but dont stop now! enjoyable, informative and thought provoking reading here.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    The spirit in both the OT ( ruwach ) and the NT ( pneuma) both "mean" breath, much like Chi can be understood to mean "breath", but the context is far more, just like Chi.
    The spirit was a working force, it was harnessable and could be used, it had "personal" qualities and wasn't "just" and energy force.
    With out the spirit there was no life and when one died the spirit returned to God/source of life or energy.
    The spirit was what allowed people to heal others, themselves, to understand the cosmos ( to a limited degree) and to even cause "miracles" to happen.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    local
    Posts
    4,200
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    The spirit was what allowed people to heal others, themselves, to understand the cosmos ( to a limited degree) and to even cause "miracles" to happen.
    yet determining what amounts to a miracle is circumstancial to the individual experiencing the action... what is a "miracle" to one, maybe mundane to another.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    Quote Originally Posted by uki View Post
    yet determining what amounts to a miracle is circumstancial to the individual experiencing the action... what is a "miracle" to one, maybe mundane to another.
    Hence the quotation marks, though ressurection of the dead pretty much falls into the "miracle" category, LOL !
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •