Qi and Spirit?

[Scott R. Brown]

i dunno. i like chocolate, yet despise football... so ummmm... i can't relate to the metaphor here.

That's the point!!! LOL!

yourself....tee hee, tee hee!!!

[David Jamieson]

king tut ate my brain.

zombiegyptian king!

sorry...what were you talkin about?

[Scott R. Brown]

Were we talking? I didn't hear anything!

[taai gihk yahn]

Were we talking? I didn't hear anything!

stop listening, you will!

(ok, well, thats something Uki would say, but I heard it because I wasn't listening either)

[Scott R. Brown]

stop listening, you will!

(ok, well, thats something Uki would say, but I heard it because I wasn't listening either)

What.....?

[ZouMaKanHua]

uki:

spirit can also be likened to intention... not that it IS intention, just that it tends to behave in a similar fashion.

In Western tradition, will (intention) is a spiritual power or faculty, ie. it's 'made' from spirit. I read somewhere...maybe a japanese book....that 'mind rides the qi' which is more an experiential description than a metaphysical one i guess.

That's one of the interesting differences between Chinese and Western metaphysics: Chinese seems to incorporate more subjective experiential elements. I think that's why Taoist stuff can be so practical and appealing.

The Samson story is a good one. I don't quite get how any of the miraculous stuff happens, but the message from metaphysics is that spirit/qi or the immaterial side of things determines the physical/material side of things.

For Christians, the fall of man destroyed the spiritual connection with God, which I guess maintained the integrity of everything - ie. kept the physical in line with the spiritual, and kept the spiritual pure also.

In Taoist literature, there are references to some kind of similar historic decline, but it is attributed either to excessive knowledge, or excessive desire, and the disorder/disharmony that follows from these.

In my opinion these alternative views complement one another, like reading different historical accounts of the same event.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Long ago I read in more than one source that the ancient Taoists said that the knowledge of which plants to use for medicinal purposes, what other things are for health, and so on, came from giant beings that came from another world or land that provided the ancients with this information.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

ZouMaKanHua:

Jing Qi and Shen are considered to be the 3 treasures/harmonies/aspects of life in Daoism.

As with YinYang, JingShen represents a two relatively opposite aspects of the whole, with one aspect requiring the other to exist and vice versa. Neither aspect or "side" is absolute.

Jing is not just the substance/flesh of the body, it is also the genetically coded adaptive activity (including instinct) of that substance/flesh. Shen is not just our behavior, it is also our ability to sense, engage with and understand the experiences we're having, have had and will have.

As a whole, then, life is an expression of JingShen. Of their interdependence it is said that the Shen rides the Jing, that the Fire warms the water, that the spirit animates the body (modern Chinese Medicine states that the heart/shen is the ruler/emperor of the body.)

There's even a famous mythological animal, Xuánwǔ, which represents this idea.



Xuánwǔ is a pseudo-chimeric creature, a turtle with a snake wrapped around its shell. The Turtle is looking up at the snake, which is staring down at the turtle. The turtle is representative of Jing/Yin, and the snake representative of Shen/Yang. Their interdependence is as follows: the snake, bound to the turtle, cannot move on its own; the turtle, for its part, cannot remove the snake. If, however, they combine their influences (their Qi) - the turtle's environmental adaptivity and the snake's heightened senses - then the snake can raise itself up on the turtle's back, look around and direct the turtle towards mutually beneficial goals, while the turtle's adaptivity allows the snake to attain goals it would not be able to reach on its own.

[Scott R. Brown]

For Christians, the fall of man destroyed the spiritual connection with God, which I guess maintained the integrity of everything - ie. kept the physical in line with the spiritual, and kept the spiritual pure also.

The fall from Grace following the eating of the fruit from the tree of Good and Evil is an allegory for the awakening of choice in the human experience. Before choice sentient beings behaved instinctualy/intuitively without separation from their source/God! Separation occurs once one is able to discriminate between two choices and decide one is better, or worse, than the other.

In Ch'an it would be considered the beginning of the discriminative mind; discrimination creates delusion. To transcend delusion we must relearn not to discriminate between opposites, that is emotionally treat all things as ONE (equanimity) even though we still live in a world of Many! This same principle is experienced/learned amongst western mystics.

Xuánwǔ is a pseudo-chimeric creature, a turtle with a snake wrapped around its shell. The Turtle is looking up at the snake, which is staring down at the turtle. The turtle is representative of Jing/Yin, and the snake representative of Shen/Yang. Their interdependence is as follows: the snake, bound to the turtle, cannot move on its own; the turtle, for its part, cannot remove the snake. If, however, they combine their influences (their Qi) - the turtle's environmental adaptivity and the snake's heightened senses - then the snake can raise itself up on the turtle's back, look around and direct the turtle towards mutually beneficial goals, while the turtle's adaptivity allows the snake to attain goals it would not be able to reach on its own.

LOL!!! This reminds me of the turle with the bird on his back in the B.C. comic book!

[Xiao3 Meng4]

LOL yes, it kinda does!

I like your terms... the snake could therefore be the discriminative mind, and the turtle the instinctual mind. The snake represents more activity than form, whilst the turtle represents more form than activity, though both have elements of each.

[ZouMaKanHua]

Xiao3 Meng4:

I struggle with the more specific/technical Taoist theories. I find it difficult to understand how they identified these three elements, and how the work together logically. Basically I get more confused the more I read about them

That's why I like the metaphysics of Aquinas etc, because it is very systematic (though I rely on interpretations written by others). I think the systematic progression from the Western source allows me to put the Taoist stuff in a clearer context. However, it seems that the Jing Qi Shen concept crosses over from metaphysics into medicine, which is a different kettle of fish altogether....a different paradigm, I mean.

Scott R. Brown:

The fall from Grace following the eating of the fruit from the tree of Good and Evil is an allegory for the awakening of choice in the human experience. Before choice sentient beings behaved instinctualy/intuitively without separation from their source/God! Separation occurs once one is able to discriminate between two choices and decide one is better, or worse, than the other.

There are a few additional interpretations. Some say it was merely the disobedience that caused the fall, others say it was the reliance on knowledge and intellect instead of faith, while others say that 'knowledge' refers to experience ie. experience of evil...

I guess it could be all of them combined too.

I even read somewhere that the crux of the problem was the doubt of God which came right before eating the fruit, ie. Eve believing that God can't really be trusted.

With regard to discrimination, I wonder if it's possible to discriminate naturally, without delusion? EG, when you're on 'the way' you simply *know* how to respond appropriately.... could just be semantics i guess :

[kfson]

The fall from Grace following the eating of the fruit from the tree of Good and Evil is an allegory for the awakening of choice in the human experience. Before choice sentient beings behaved instinctualy/intuitively without separation from their source/God! Separation occurs once one is able to discriminate between two choices and decide one is better, or worse, than the other.

In Ch'an it would be considered the beginning of the discriminative mind; discrimination creates delusion. To transcend delusion we must relearn not to discriminate between opposites, that is emotionally treat all things as ONE (equanimity) even though we still live in a world of Many! This same principle is experienced/learned amongst western mystics.



LOL!!! This reminds me of the turle with the bird on his back in the B.C. comic book!

"The Gnostic Christians who authored the Nag Hammadi scriptures did not read Genesis as history with a moral, but as a myth with a meaning. To them, Adam and Eve were not actual historical figures, but representatives of two intrapsychic principles within every human being. Adam was the dramatic embodiment of psyche, or soul, while Eve stood for the pneuma, or spirit. Soul, to the Gnostics, meant the embodiment of the emotional and thinking functions of the personality, while spirit represented the human capacity for spiritual consciousness. The former was the lesser self (the ego of depth psychology), the latter the transcendental function, or the "higher self," as it is sometimes known. Obviously, Eve, then, is by nature superior to Adam, rather than his inferior as implied by orthodoxy.

Nowhere is Eve's superiority and numinous power more evident than in her role as Adam's awakener. Adam is in a deep sleep, from which Eve's liberating call arouses him. While the orthodox version has Eve physically emerge from Adam's body, the Gnostic rendering has the spiritual principle known as Eve emerging from the unconscious depths of the somnolent Adam. Before she thus emerges into liberating consciousness, Eve calls forth to the sleeping Adam in the following manner, as stated by the Gnostic Apocryphon of John:

I entered into the midst of the dungeon which is the prison of the body. And I spoke thus: "He who hears, let him arise from the deep sleep." And then he (Adam) wept and shed tears. After he wiped away his bitter tears he spoke, asking: "Who is it that calls my name, and whence has this hope come unto me, while I am in the chains of this prison?" And I spoke thus: "I am the Pronoia of the pure light; I am the thought of the undefiled spirit. . . . Arise and remember . . . and follow your root, which is I . . . and beware of the deep sleep."

A Gnostic treatise, The Testimony of Truth. While repeating the words of the orthodox version of Genesis, the Gnostic source states that "the serpent was wiser than all the animals that were in Paradise." After extolling the wisdom of the serpent, the treatise casts serious aspersions on the creator: "What sort is he then, this God?" Then come some of the answers to the rhetorical question. The motive of the creator in punishing Adam was envy, for the creator envied Adam, who by eating the fruit would acquire knowledge (gnosis). Neither did the creator seem quite omniscient when he asked of Adam: "Where are you?" The creator has shown himself repeatedly to be "an envious slanderer," a jealous God, who inflicts cruel punishments on those who transgress his capricious orders and commandments. The treatise comments: "But these are the things he said (and did) to those who believe in him and serve him." The implication clearly presents itself that with a God like this, one needs no enemies.

Another treatise, The Hypostasis of the Archons, informs us that not only was Eve the emissary of the divine Sophia, but the serpent was similarly inspired by the same supernal wisdom. Sophia mystically entered the serpent, who thereby acquired the title of instructor. The instructor then taught Adam and Eve about their source, informing them that they were of high and holy origin and not mere slaves of the creator deity."

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/nov_2000/gnostic.htm

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi kfson,

Thank you for sharing those interesting interpretations. From a cursory reading it appears to me they are all variations on the same theme with some individualized material inserted. It is my position that with mythological/symbolic stories there are many interpretations, each possessing their own angle of Truth. I do not have the time to commentate on them from my own perspective at the moment, but I appreciate that you took the time to include them in this discussion.

[uki]

Long ago I read in more than one source that the ancient Taoists said that the knowledge of which plants to use for medicinal purposes, what other things are for health, and so on, came from giant beings that came from another world or land that provided the ancients with this information.

i believe these beings were called "anunnaki" in sumerian, they were the greek "gods" of mount olympus, odin and his merry band of warriors, krishna, kali, the immortals, elves, ra, ptah, seth, osiris - same truth, different stories(myths/legends)... ugh... and people just don't see the relation to it all in regards to where humanity stands... celestial kung fu - quakery or truth?? magical weapons forged from meterorites by "immortal" master swordsmiths who live in the mountains?? is seven star mantis based on seven spots on the back of an insect or is it based on the patterns of a certain star constellation?? why are numbers such a big factor in ancient forms?? 8, 9, 18, 32, 64, 72, 108 - all very common numbers in the kung fu world, why?? numerology and metaphysical applicability, coincidence in a random universe?? mathematics is the language of the quantum world, the language of other dimensions, probablility, differetials, yet ultimately where does mathematics come from?? going back far enough anywhere around the globe and we find that human knowledge and understanding began with the "gods" or "immortals" or some other form of higher entity or being... taoist alchemical transmutation techniques or DNA/genetic rewiring based on light and minerals(or both)?? the ancients were wise beyond what science is yet catching up on... great post sal, you have made my day.

[kfson]

i believe these beings were called "anunnaki"

Nephilim:
"...passage from Evola:
"These angels were prey to the desire for power and, in ‘mating,’ fell - descended to earth - onto an elevated place (Mount Hermon). From this union were born the Nephilim, a powerful race (the Titans- says Giza Papyrus) , allegorically described as ‘giants’ but whose supernatural nature remains to be discovered in The Book of Enoch: ‘They need neither food, nor do they thirst and they evade [physical] perception.
"The Nephilim, the ‘fallen’ angels are nothing less than the titans and ‘the watchers,’ the race that the Book of Baruch calls, ‘glorious and war like,’ the same race that awoke in men the spirit of the heroes and warriors, who invented the arts and who transmitted the mystery of magic What more decisive proof concerning the spirit of the hermetico-alchemical tradition can there be than the explicit and continuous reference in the texts precisely to that tradition? We read in the hermetic literature: ‘The ancient and sacred books,’ says Hermes, ‘teach that certain angels burned with desire for women. They descended to earth and taught all the works of Nature. They were the ones who created the [hermetic] works and from them proceeds the primordial tradition of this Art.’ The very word chemi, from chema, from which derive the words alchemy and chemistry, appears for the first time in a papyrus of the Twelfth Dynasty, referring to a tradition of just this kind."

http://www.vadgemoore.com/writings/i...itiations.html