Question for Wah Lum people

[argentino]

I think there is a mistake here. Someone mentioned the Muslim Tan Tuei as influencing Hua Lin Tang Lang Quan (Wah Lum).
The famous Muslim Tan Tui (boxing of the Hui Chinese Moslem) that spead to many Northern styles and was also taught in the Jing Wu assn. means "springing leg". The Lee Kwan Shan's family style is Tam tui meaning "seeking leg". It is a different style and different Chinese characters !!!

Best regards

El argentino

[NorthernMantis]

I've always wondered about that.Thanks for clearing it.

[18elders]

Chan wan ching made up 1-6, he also has a different version of big mantis than Chan poi, i like Chan wan ching's better.
Anybody ever learn Saint Hands?
How about the basic exercises 6-10. or the hand moves to the 8 stances?
Anybody know when Chan wan ching was born? It is never shown in the handbook, only the year he died. Why is that?

[Joe Mantis]

I Agree with 18 Elders. There seems to be a lot of clouded history when it comes to WLPM. Did Chan Poi affiliate himself more so with Lee Kwan Shan because he was well known? This seems to make sense in light of the fact that he was only 6 when he trained under LKS for 2 years.

Does anyone know the applications for forms 1-6. I mean were they formally taught them?

Also LKS studied 8 step PM which is known as Jut Sow in other areas of Asia.

[Olethros]

"Chan wan ching made up 1-6"

Where are you getting this information?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I have been told that Tan Tui was Lee Kwan Shan's family style. Tainan Mantis has an interesting post concerning the different characters used for Tan.

Master Chan is very traditional and his first Sifu is his Sifu no matter what. That might explain why so much emphasis is placed on LKS over Chan Wan Ching even though he didn't train very long with LKS. It also makes for better stories and marketing. :-)

There are Tan Tui forms in Wah Lum but I haven't reached that far yet.

Master Chan recently told a story about his training where the school had been split in two with each group learning different forms and techniques. This most likely caused variations from the originals. I know that students were taught differently according to their physical attributes and abilities. Somewhare along the line (after LKS died) Wah Lum splintered with senior students going their own way. Master Chan has been trying to pull it all back together and recover as much as he can from his remaining Sihings (mostly relatives from what I understand). I think this explains the variations and different styles that you find in Wah Lum today. I have seen some of the Wah Lum forms from China and they are quite a bit different than what we do here. Master Chan has heavily influenced the forms, techniques and curriculum. Today's Wah Lum (American Wah Lum?) is more a creation of Master Chan than anyone else.

[NorthernMantis]

Also LKS studied 8 step PM which is known as Jut Sow in other areas of Asia.

uhh I think your mistaken.Lee Kwan Shan learned from Chin Yeung in the real wah lum temple in China.If I remeber reading 8step mantis history,and please correct me if I'm wrong,Lee Kwan Shan was alive diruing the time that 8 step mantis was created.I'm certianly Chin Yeung predates the creation of 8 step.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

18elders
By my calculations Master Chan trained with Lee Kwan Shan approximately 6 years. Sifu Tu's estimate of at least 10 years for Chan Wan Ching is probably about right. I'll see what I can find out.

Tianan Mantis
Are you speculating that Chan Wan Ching left to train in Hong Kong then return (after LKS death?) to take ever Master Chan's (and others) training?

[NorthernMantis]

It's ironic that some guys say it's wu shu because they saw an inverted butterfly twist and others say it's southern.

Anyway I would like to point out the differences between 8 step and wah lum after re-reading 8step history.

1)Although my sifu pointed out some similarities wah lum with ba gua it definitely does NOT have ba gua footwork like 8 step.My sifu's husband know's ba gua very well and it definitely does not use the same foot work.

2)Chiang Hua Long was a 7th generation (from Wong Long ) master and Fong Hua Yi the 2nd generation (8th generation from Wong Long) Grandmaster of Eight Step Praying Mantis.
Chin Yeung was the fourth gerenation successor of the praying mantis system and Lee Kwan Shan was the fith generation successor and they were alive in those times.

That means that 8 step is older than wah lum.

3)Chiang Hua Long was a common citizen while Chin Yeung was an abbot of the real wah lum temple in China and the wah lum temple is still there.I don't think 8 step was passed along monks since it was created outside of those monasteries.

My conclusion is that 8 step is not jut sow.

[woliveri]

18Elders Wrote:

"Chan wan ching made up 1-6, he also has a different version of big mantis than Chan poi, i like Chan wan ching's better.
Anybody ever learn Saint Hands?
How about the basic exercises 6-10. or the hand moves to the 8 stances? "

Great Posts 18 Elders!!! Gotta get to see you next time I'm in Florida.

I never heard of Saint Hands but I did know the hand movements to the 8 basic stances at one time (like double tiger claw palms with lady horse stance). We learned these in the "old days". Don't know if they are still teaching that.

How about Soft Form? I've heard of this one but never seen it. I don't think anyone has learned the whole thing and only a select few have learned parts of it. I have heard that it contains all the movements in Wah Lum.

I had heard Master Chan's first form was 36 hands. I don't know if that's true or just student rumor.

[Joe Mantis]

Northern Mantis

It seems to me that there is a discrepancy about Jut Sow and 8 step. They are one and the same styles of PM, however they are referred to differently over parts of China and SE Asia.

_____________________


Still my question remains: Was anyone taught the applications to the forms?

[Tainan Mantis]

18 elders,
Where have you seen Chan Wan Ching's beng bu? And, can I see it too?

woliveri,
I have seen soft form. I was there when my sifu was teaching Leroy. It was slow but not too soft. I think he called it slow wah lum. It is definetly WLPM and doesn't look like taiji. As I remember it was very difficult to perform because of the enormous amount of muscle control needed.
My impression at the time was that I could just do any WLPM very slow and strict and create this kind of flavor. I'll ask Leroy his opinion.

Hua Lin Laoshr,
I was told by Master Chan's kung fu cousin that Chan Wan Ching left China when young and studied under the head of the HK branch. He heard this from Chan Wan Ching's kung fu brother. What does young mean? I don't know.
Maybe when the history of WLPM is published we will have a better idea of what happened and when.

[18elders]

Tainan, i think i put the 2 versions of Big mantis on the tape i sent you? If there are 2 versions i think Chan wan ching's is the second one, watch the difference in the hand moves in the very opening of the form.
If there isn't 2 versions let me know and i can get it to you.
Where did you hear Chan poi did lan jie?
If he does know it i think it should be taught in the Wah lum curriculum.

Woliveri
Most people don't learn the hand positions to he 8 stances in wah lum, i know it used to be taught but not now. I don't know why, but it seems it would be better to know them.
My shr-fu told me there was 10 basic wah lum exercises, i learned 7 but he didn't know the other 3.
Yes i have seen saint hand, i had it on video but unfortunately i taped big mantis over it so it is lost.
I had my shr-fu ask chan poi about it and he just walked away from him.
Another one of my kung fu brothers saw tom turcotte(not sure if i spelled his last name correct)do a form he never saw before. I don't know the name of the form but he said it had lots of acrobatic moves in it.
My shr-fu knew part of soft fist, a few of my kung fu brothers know parts of it. As far as i know Bob rosen knows the most of it but i don't think he knows all of it.


Joe mantis-
as far as the wah lum 1-6, i don't know of any 2 person sets to them or any drills that break the form apart to learn the apps.

Has anyone learned the 4th part of lok low?
Anyone ever hear of some kind of elephant trunk mantis or something like that.
I remeber Chan saying something about it and Lila used to have a Kwan do with it on it.

[SaMantis]

hi 18elders,

on joe mantis' question -- I don't know anyone who has learned the 4th part of lok low, either. Master Chan taught the 1st part in a seminar last spring, a couple of more advanced students know the 2nd part.

Elephant trunk mantis hand -- is the fifth exercise in the curriculum (not the fifth form). It's a drill to teach beginners how to shape and use the mantis hook. The "elephant trunk" (correct me if I'm wrong, folks) describes the motion your arm makes during the drill. A little hard to put into words.

BTW, good discussion, everyone.

SamM

[NorthernMantis]

Joe I don't know if it may be for certain if what you're saying is true.

I'm wondering have you seen the forms in person?I'm guessing you might know 8step as well.Are there any other 8step guys in here that have seen wah lum before?If so did it look like 8step?

I'm sorry to sound skeptic but I find it a bit hard to believe that they may be the same.It doesn't make sense to me.The lineages do not coincide and neither does the foot work.My sifu ,as well as her husband, is very well versed in internal styles such as ba gua.I'll ask her more about it.She's done 7* before and I'm sure she has seen 8 step maybe she can have more input.

I have nothing againts 8 step but I think you might be misinformed.Can you give more reasons why it is 8 step?You have to remeber that there are styles that have nothing to do with each other and have shared the same name.If it is how did it get to wah lum in China?The place is still standing but it was partly destroyed during the Cultural Revolution.What about si gung's other kung fu brothers in China do they do 8 step also?

I just can't see any connection.