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Thread: No Sex

  1. #1
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    No Sex

    JS: As far as I know Taoists suggest that one should also stop having sex, otherwise the Small and Large Heavenly Circles will never open. Is that true for Bagua Neigong practice as well?

    MR.MA: Yes, this is very important condition. My teacher told me that at the very beginning - if you want to develop true skill, you must be like a monk, living in celibacy. There is a story about "Coal" Ma, who was selling coal in Beijing's Caishikou. When he started to study Baguazhang from Dong Haichuan, he took his quilt and moved out to live in the shop. He lived there for three years and did not return home even once during that time.

    Your body requires one week to recover after one sexual intercourse. i.e. come back to the condition before the intercourse. One hundred days is required to recover Original Qi (Yuan Qi) completely (i.e. recover to the condition before one had any sex). About three years is required to open Small Heavenly Circle.

    JS: What about married people? I'm afraid people who have families will have difficulty with developing any Internal Skill then...

    MR.MA: There is not a big problem with practice in Middle Basin (Zhong Pan), you can still get Internal Skill. However once you decide to practice Lower Basin you have to stop any sexual activity.

    JS: What if one decides to practice in Lower Basin without fulfilling that requirement?

    MR.MA: You will only hurt yourself. Lower Basin is a very demanding practice for the body and it will not be able to endure it. During Lower Basin practice you have to eat well and have good rest. It is like having a bank account. If you draw 1 million dollars from it and then transfer 1 million back it is OK. If you transfer 1 million and one dollar, you will have little saving - surplus energy. However if you transfer only 990 thousand, you will be in dept - your body will not be able to recover from the effort. In this way although your muscles may get stronger, your internal strength, internal potential, will decrease. This phenomena can be easily recognized by hearing one's voice - weak voice, neither loud nor clear, sometimes accompanied by coughing is the symptom of low energy level. Lower Basin method is most suitable for young, unmarried people. Otherwise you have to make the decision to become like a monk for three years...

    JS: We were talking about Small Heavenly Circle. What about the Large Heavenly Circle (Da Zhou Tian)?

    MR.MA: Once the Small Circle is opened, the Large will open naturally. There is a saying "Small Achievement comes in three years, Big Achievement - in ten years" (Xiaocheng San Nian Dacheng Shi Nian). One has to live in celibacy for at least six years to achieve true skill. Once the skill comes out, you still have to limit the number of sexual intercourses. Two, three times a week will ruin your skill completely. Once every two, three months is not a big problem.

    JS: What do you mean by ruining the skill?

    MR.MA: Your legs and waist (lower back) will lose the flexibility and strength. There are many martial arts practitioners who had remarkable skill in youth but when older they could hardly walk. This was caused by excessive sex. One of my teachers, Guo Gumin, was never married. When I started Bagua practice in 1961, for six years I was practically living in celibacy as well. At 5:00PM I was coming back home from work, ate dinner, and immediately went to practice. I was coming back at 1:00AM, after 6-7 hours of practice. Everyday, without even one day of rest.
    Give me immortality or give me death!

  2. #2
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    Give me immortality or give me death!

  3. #3
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    That was a very good article. Thanks for sharing!

  4. #4
    It never ceases to amaze me how individuals who consider themselves Taoists will follow archaic superstition which clearly goes against the principles of Tao. Sexual relations are a normal and NECESSARY function of life that is part of the inherent nature of humans. One CANNOT live in accord with Tao if they go against their own nature. Abstention from sex to preserve or promote Chi development is a superstitious view that has no truth in reality!

    The article cited has been addressed in the past. The following are some comments I previously made regarding sexual activity:

    Repeated research demonstrates that sexual activity prior to athletic activity IMPROVES performance.

    Some may argue that this does not apply to internal Chi development. They argue that sexual activity inhibits Chi flow. This limited view is in conflict with the Principles of Tao. It is based upon a misunderstanding of Tao. In fact healthy sexual activity promotes healthy Chi development and preservation!

    If our purpose is to bring ourselves into accord with Tao and if we accept that being in accord with Tao is to live a natural life in balance with all things and in accord with the principles of Tao, then we must accept that part of a normal, natural human life is sexual activity. Therefore, to not recognize and accept our normal sexual needs is to be out of accord with Tao and thus out of balance. One cannot properly harmonize their Chi if they are out of balance. The more balanced our life the more easily Chi is developed and stored. To fight or inhibit normal, balanced sexual activity is to create conflict within our nature and we become OUT of accord with Tao; when we are out of balance Chi CANNOT flow unimpeded.

    One may ask, then how did people accomplish such feats through abstention? Well first, who is to say they wouldn’t have developed faster, more effectively and more comprehensively had they lived a life more in accord with Tao? Secondly, it isn’t necessary to abstain from sexual activity or engage in sexual activity. Neither is what develops Chi; it is mental concentration in accordance with the elimination of impediments to the free flow of Chi. When we deny our normal human needs we create blockages that impede the free flow of Chi. By fulfilling normal sexual needs we reduce any possible preoccupation that may occur and thus the impediments.

    Lastly, Chinese culture is not the only culture to have perceived and utilize the functions of Chi. Many “primitive” or nature based religions have a similar concept of Chi. Not all of them share the view of sexual abstention. In my younger days I was an apprentice for some time to an American Indian Medicine man. He was very familiar with the “Universal Energy” and he taught that sexual activity was one method that would help to balance and channel this energy properly. This teaching is in agreement with a proper understanding of Taoist principles, not as they are taught by some, but as they actually are! A balanced life neither excessively pursues nor runs away from natural human needs and functions. They are kept in their proper balance according to the example illustrated by Yin-Yang.

    Sexual activity is normal and healthy. It is excess or paucity that need be avoided. Sexual activity stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system which is what causes the sense of loss or relaxation associated with the presumed loss of Chi. It is not vitality that is lost as a consequence of sexual activity it is a state of relaxation that is gained. This state of relaxation is a healthful and necessary condition that stimulates specific biological functions. By changing ones perspective one will perceive that their glass is not half empty, but is half full. We have not lost vitality we have gained a beneficial and healthful period of relaxation. The parasympathetic system promotes energy conservation by slowing the heart rate and increases intestinal and glandular activity. The Ancients confused the sense of relaxation with a loss of vitality. To continue to do so today is foolishness!

    We must remember that just because a principle or activity was adhered to in the past does not mean it is necessarily a true, healthy or beneficial practice. Ancient Taoists fed themselves mercury pills in an effort to promote longer life. Mercury is a deadly poison, but was promoted as a life sustaining substance. Is anyone willing to ingest mercury knowing that it will damage their brain and nervous system, just because the ancient Taoists said we should? If a person is willing to follow ancient Taoist sexual abstention practices why not follow the practice of mercury ingestion as well? How can we say the ancient Taoists are incorrect in one area, but correct in another without questioning everything they taught? Since they have been proven to be wrong in one area we must question everything they have taught when it does not come into accord with simple reason and the observable processes of Tao. The Ancient Taoists were not the best and final word on Tao or Chi cultivation. They were men exploring and learning about the processes of Tao just as we do today. Their teachings are meant to be guides to aide us in bringing ourselves into accord with Tao, but they are NOT the final word, Tao is!

  5. #5
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    In my experience sexual essence is transformed into Chi and if you lose it that retards the growth of chi. The ancient Taoist texts say abstain, my Church says abstain for the full flowering of the mystical life and my personal experience says abstain

    During meditation I have felt the perineum pumping like I am ejaculating but without emission. With that a rush of energy would flow up my spine. Upon entering my head it would roar like Niagra Falls inside my head and blazing white light would appear before my inner vision.

    Now this was years ago in the early 90's when my practice was all about turning essence into chi. When I would lose my essence through a wet dream or self-abuse the light would not appear and the pain in my testicles would be extreme. When I had conserved the light would happen. The light means essence is becoming chi. I am sorry if others havent experienced this but I have. I have also found many others who have. The Ancient texts are clear on this.

    Ancient alcemists saying: Nature unaided fails.
    Give me immortality or give me death!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by DarinHamel
    In my experience sexual essence is transformed into Chi and if you lose it that retards the growth of chi. The ancient Taoist texts say abstain, my Church says abstain for the full flowering of the mystical life and my personal experience says abstain

    During meditation I have felt the perineum pumping like I am ejaculating but without emission. With that a rush of energy would flow up my spine. Upon entering my head it would roar like Niagra Falls inside my head and blazing white light would appear before my inner vision.

    Now this was years ago in the early 90's when my practice was all about turning essence into chi. When I would lose my essence through a wet dream or self-abuse the light would not appear and the pain in my testicles would be extreme. When I had conserved the light would happen. The light means essence is becoming chi. I am sorry if others havent experienced this but I have. I have also found many others who have. The Ancient texts are clear on this.
    Hi DarinHamel,

    Feel free to limit your experiences. That is your choice and the benefits and deficits are yours to enjoy. Your statements make it clear they have worked for you, however I can drive a nail with a wrench too, but it is less efficient than when using a hammer.

    The ancient alchemical Taoists and your Church are wrong. This has been demonstrated using scientific facts and simple reasoning. Their views do not follow the simplest most basic principles of Tao. Which are, living a “balanced” life according to “ones nature” in accord with the principles of Tao.

    Your Church also has problems with pedophilia! Why do you think that is? Perhaps because they force priests to deny their natural, normal, healthy human sexuality!! If you deny your nature you will reap the consequences of that denial. When a priest is forced to deny his nature he carries multiple burdens. The first is his struggle to suppress healthy normal biological and psychological needs. The second is the unnecessary guilt that is a consequence of his inability to suppress his normal needs. The third is consequences of the harm he does to others and himself when he molests the innocent. These burdens may be avoided by simply allowing priests to follow their normal human natures. The Hebrews understood this that is why rabbis are required to marry and beget children.

    When it comes to mystical experiences, they occur whether one is celibate or not. Your experiences will follow your expectation. If you proceeded to pursue your mystical experiences while engaging in normal sexual relations with the purpose to demonstrate the ancients are incorrect, you would discover that they are incorrect. You would discover that sexual relations have nothing to do with mystical experience; they have nothing to do with Chi or its cultivation. Mystical experience/Realization is about developing/cultivating the ability to perceive reality beyond the illusion of the material dualistic system. This is a state of mind, not a state of body!

    A healthy body is not even necessary! These experiences are available to anyone who takes the time and makes the effort regardless of the body’s physical condition. You are depending upon sources from a time period and cultural perspective that was uninformed and ignorant of many things. (Remember the mercury pills?) We don’t follow much of anything and don’t believe much of anything they believed and thought 2,000 years ago, but we will believe the ancients on this? As I stated before, if you trust their judgment so much go ahead and take your mercury pills! Let’s see what happens!

    At some point you must learn to think for yourself. These rules you follow may appear to be beneficial for you, but they are not in accord with the principles of Tao, and they are not healthy. Since they do not follow the principles of Tao they are less beneficial than following principles that will bring you into accord with Tao. As I previously pointed out, I can drive a nail with a wrench, but it is less efficient than when using a hammer.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarinHamel
    Ancient alcemists saying: Nature unaided fails.
    This is incorrect! Nature requires NO assistance. Just as water will find its own level if left alone to follow its own nature, so will a human's nature find its own balance if left alone to follow its own nature. The individuals who wrote that statement may have called themselves Taoists or may have been called Taoists by others, but they were not following the principles of Tao and were therefore not in accord with Tao!
    Last edited by Scott R. Brown; 06-07-2006 at 01:20 AM.

  7. #7
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    By deeming this rule as absolute you are limiting yourself.

    And, by my understanding, the small circle of heaven is a natural pathway which the qi travels daily. You can impede it, slow it down, speed it up, etc. but the qi will continue to move at its own pace if left alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  8. #8
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    Scott, you see me as limited. I see you as limited. Neither of us will know who is right until one of us become immortal. Immortality is the experience I seek. The rest are just sign posts along the way.

    Good luck with the path you have chosen.
    Give me immortality or give me death!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarinHamel
    Scott, you see me as limited. I see you as limited. Neither of us will know who is right until one of us become immortal. Immortality is the experience I seek. The rest are just sign posts along the way.

    Good luck with the path you have chosen.
    I'm curious, have you considered how you'll feel if you don't achieve immortality. I would think this is a pretty big risk if you're putting all your eggs in that basket, so to speak, and there's a pretty high probability you won't be living forever.

    No offense meant, just wondering what your thought are on this.
    The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwid
    I'm curious, have you considered how you'll feel if you don't achieve immortality. I would think this is a pretty big risk if you're putting all your eggs in that basket, so to speak, and there's a pretty high probability you won't be living forever.

    No offense meant, just wondering what your thought are on this.
    Valid question. I would feel worse if I was married and didn't achieve it than if I never had sex and didn't.

    It might be a personality quirk but I would rather die a loser and be laughed at by the whole world than not do everything to achieve something I think/feel is so important.

    I am not as certain about my path as Scott is about his and the possibility is extremely remote to actually become immortal/ascend, but this has been a life long thing for me since I was a little kid and I heard of Enoch and Elijah ascending and not dying.

    Nothing matters to me but this.
    Give me immortality or give me death!

  11. #11
    Hi Darin,

    There may be some confusion concerning what constitutes a limited view and what constitutes an unlimited view. Limited REQUIRES one to do A in order to attain B when A is not necessary. Limited states a particular path is the ONLY way to attain B, or it may state A is the BEST way to attain B when neither are so. Unlimited understands that A is but one of many tools used to attain B, but understands that A is not REQUIRED in order to attain B. Unlimited recognizes the Limited as a path with many inherent restrictions which must later be discarded and prefers the freedom of the Unlimited to the restrictions of the Limited.

    Understanding and insight allow one to discern which principles are of greater benefit and which ones are of lesser benefit. To say that one MUST abstain from sexual activity in order to gain spiritual insight/immortality is a statement of limitation and a false statement. To say one may engage in sexual activity and still gain spiritual insight/immortality is a statement of freedom, one that reduces limitation and is a true statement. Unlimited allows for greater choices, Limited sets unreasonable and un-necessary boundaries.

    I am not seeking to attain immortality because I understand I am already immortal. There is nothing for me to attain because immortality is inherent within my being. Since I accept my immortality as inherent within my being I have no need to pursue un-natural and un-necessary activities to ensure it. This understanding results in freedom, not limitation. I do not live in fear that I may not continue following death. One who pursues immortality is doing so out of fear their existence will end. This is Limitation resulting from erroneous views. Erroneous views lead to limitation, correct views lead to freedom.

    Inherently all roads lead to Rome, but not all routes are of equal value. Some routes are short and direct, some are scenic and circuitous, others are treacherous and lead to distractions that may impede or slow ones eventual arrival. We each make our own choice as to the route we wish to take and we will each reap the rewards or the detrimental and/or un-necessary consequences provided by that route.

    Spiritual insight is a state of being, a state of mind. Performing physical actions do not lead to spiritual insight; perceiving directly with the mind does. Seeing and feeling things move up and down your spine and out the top of your head means nothing if these experiences do not result in deeper insight and understanding. Following precise rules and regulations pertaining to actions and activities, that is, restrictions, do not lead one to freedom. That is the same thing as saying freedom comes from restricting freedom. This is foolishness!

  12. #12
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    Greetings..

    Scott: Excellent discourse.. Now, i have a suggestion.. Copyright this stuff, compile your posts into a book and retire.. you have shared enough wisdom in this forum to create quite a handy piece of usable literature..

    Scott's descriptions are consistent with basic Tao principles.. much of the reference to abstinence is from people trying to contrive an agenda for immortallity.. and, as Scott says, we are already immortal.. awareness is the variable..

    Be well..
    TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"

  13. #13
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    Scott, like I said before you are way smarter than me. There is no way I can out argue you. But your version of what you seem to think immortality is not my definition of immortality.

    Like I said before, in the end, we'll see. I wish you good luck with your path.
    Give me immortality or give me death!

  14. #14
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    Smile Ascetisim

    I wonder if you are aware that Dong Haichuan, the founder of Bagua Zhang, was an eunuch. One could imagine the suffering that he must have endured both physcically, mentally and emotionally. We also have to wonder without the "organ" that produce sperm where would his Qi came from?

    In all fairness, I have tried the restrain from sex for a 100 days deal when I was first taught the Wu style Neigong. It did delivery what it promised - a belly that's like steel rapped in cotton. Now, I didn't go any further than that step due to life style choices. So the abstain from sex thing is not without merit.

    I am more or less on the same line with Scott. So I will go with don't focus on the finger pointing to the moon advice. The 100 days thing or even the "road signs" is more or less a trial or initiation if you will. It's meant to set you on your jounery no more no less IMHO.

    Organized religion like to hold spirituality as hostage with politics. There are plenty of tools and paths to get to the land of spirituality beware of people or organization that plays the political card. "Reality without ritual leads to the truth"(don't remember who said it first, sorry).

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  15. #15
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    Greetings..

    Beginning Iron Palm training there is 120 days of "no sex.. no self-sex".. and, yes, there is a noticable "fire".. and, together with the herbs, there is a unique tissue transformation of the hands.. (don't go there )...

    Further research and training has led me to the Taoist disciplines of sex without external emmission.. the sensations are exactly the same only no loss.. unfortunately, i don't have such control while i sleep ... but, the effects are observable by both myself and my partner.. endurance is beneficial in so many ways...

    Be well...
    TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"

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