young sparrow

[EARTH DRAGON]

Can someone help me on this? I am a little confused on the techniques inconjunction with this 2 man form. I am sure I lost some valuable steps in translation becuse the way I have it worded in my notes does not flow! all help would be apprieciated greatly in correcting this set the way it should be performed thanks guys

O & D FIGHTING STANCE
O. RIGHT HOOK
D. STEP TO LEFT BOW , LONG ARM BLOCK , RIGHT PALM STRIKE TO
COLLAR BONE
O. LEFT SIDE BLOCK
D. RIGHT MANTIS GRAB , PULL LEFT ARM , RIGHT PALM STRIKE TO RIGHT
SHOULDER , CROSS LEFT ARM PUSHING DOWN , RIGHT HOOK LOW
O. RIGHT BACK FIST TO BLOCK LOW HOOK
D. RIGHT HOOK
O. RIGHT PALM STRIKE , PUSH , TRADE POSITIONS , PUSH LEFT ARM DOWN
RIGHT LOW HOOK
D. LEFT BLOCK , RIGHT BACKFIST
O. RIGHT HOOK
D. LEFT BLOCK , RIGHT PALM STRIKE
O. BLOCKS , PUSH , TRADE POSITIONS , BACKFIST
D. LEFT DOWN BLOCK , RIGHT HOOK
O. LONG ARM BLOCK , DOUBLE MANTIS GRAB ROOT , CIRCLE INTO
STRAIGHT PUNCH
D. LEFT BLOCK , TURN BODY , RIGHT ELBOW STRIKE , RIGHT BACKFIST ,
STEP TO LEFT BOW AND PUNCH
O & D FIGHTING STANCE
O. RIGHT HOOK
D. STEP TO LEFT BOW , LONG ARM BLOCK , RIGHT PALM STRIKE TO
COLLAR BONE
O. LEFT SIDE BLOCK
D. RIGHT MANTIS GRAB , PULL LEFT ARM , RIGHT PALM STRIKE TO RIGHT
SHOULDER , CROSS LEFT ARM PUSHING DOWN , RIGHT HOOK LOW
O. RIGHT BACK FIST TO BLOCK LOW HOOK
D. RIGHT HOOK
O. RIGHT PALM STRIKE , PUSH , TRADE POSITIONS , PUSH LEFT ARM DOWN
RIGHT LOW HOOK
D. LEFT BLOCK , RIGHT BACKFIST
O. RIGHT HOOK
D. LEFT BLOCK , RIGHT PALM STRIKE
O. BLOCKS , PUSH , TRADE POSITIONS , BACKFIST
D. LEFT DOWN BLOCK , RIGHT HOOK
O. LONG ARM BLOCK , DOUBLE MANTIS GRAB ROOT , CIRCLE INTO
STRAIGHT PUNCH
D. LEFT BLOCK , TURN BODY , RIGHT ELBOW STRIKE , RIGHT BACKFIST ,
STEP TO LEFT BOW AND PUNCH

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Tainan Mantis]

Earth Dragon,
I thought that we were talking about the same form but don't recognize a singal movement in your form as relating to mine.

Although every version I've seen is different but there are certain techniques common to every version.

In sec. 1:
-Figure ten kick
-Hsuan Feng Tuei- a jump kick where you spin 360 but not the Tae Kwon Do type.

sec. 2:
-move with the wind to sweep the leaves

sec.3:
-360 sweep kick

If your form doesn't have these then we are talking about a different form.

In your manuscript which person is doing the original form?

Although I don't recognize the moves as the form I know but I can almost understand what you wrote. That is pretty good for not knowing the form. What is the section that you feel doesn't flow well?

2 points come to mind:
1-You don't have a translation of the moves from Chinese. It usually sounds better when you do.
2-You mention what the strikes are for. EG strike collar bone.

In Chinese manuscripts of 2 man forms this isn.t usually done. Instead a description of the hand shape or strike will do.

For example here is the beginning of Hsiao Fan Che

FORM-hold elbows
PARTNER-hold elbows, left front stance, straight punch

F-button stance, left feng grab right hook punch

P-left bu punch

F-left di chien block, step forward pi punch

etc.
This is usually, with some exceptions, how I've seen 2 man forms written in Chinese.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I was hoping you would answer this I highly doubted anyone else has even hear of it. My teacher has it written in chinese but seeing as how I cant read it well enough a lot must have been lost. My shrfu showed us only once and said practice till you get it right. it has been quite some time since I played around with this form and last night it didnt flow very well at all. As far as the collar bone target i,e it is just where you are striking to to help your partner know when and where to block , I am not sure as you said the way it is written but alot of times I add things to help me remember the exact technique or movement. I was wondering how much different your version is and if you would be willing to share it through email? As I said before this is the only 2 man form I know and would like to be able to teach it to my students. You were talking about hsiao fan chi being a 2 man form? I only know it as a single person form our 2nd set called small rolling wheel we also have da fan chi 4th set big rolling wheel but again this is not a 2 person form please help

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Nutt'nhunny]

Sifu, I love you to death, but this is pathetic. Your a sifu trying to learn a set you barely know over the internet. Why don't you just call up one of your kung fu brothers. Doesn't Sifu Cimino live in your same town? I saw it on the web site. If your both in the federation, why don't you just walk down the street and ask him?

[EARTH DRAGON]

I wish it was that easymy freind! But the truth is he only taught it to a few of us in San fransisco on a sunday when I lived at the school and I am the only one left. The other 3 people that learned the set have quit the federation and there is no way to get in touch with them. The reason I didnt pay much attention to the set when master shyun showed us once (other than jotting down some notes) is it is not in the cirriculum that we teach and with so much IN the cirriculum I figured I would spend my time learing what is required. But now I wish I had more 2 person forms to play with and so far tainan mantis is the only source of real mantis that I can rely on for he is extremly knowledgable in his art as well as other branches of mantis.
As for cimeno he has only been in the system for 3 years and doesnt know that much.
P.S you still havent told me who you are and its killing me cause you speak of me like we were freinds so please the suspense is to much to bear who are you?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Tainan Mantis]

One thing I have learned from my Shr-fu is to never stop trying to learn something new. He has been practicing for around 40 years and yet the other day I saw him and he was all excited about finding a monkey stylist who had retired in the mountains.

Last year it was a cavity strikes expert.

Before that it was a Tong Bei master.

When I first met him he was flying to Hong Kong at every opportunity to learn Taiji PM.

Even my grand teacher, Li Hong Jie, flew to Hong Kong to meet the GM. Alas, he was too late.

Master Li also encouraged my Shr-fu to seek out Jiang Hsiag San in order to learn 6 Harmony PM.

Other masters, such as Su Yu Zhang, corrosponded with Huang Han Hsun, the Seven Star master of Hong Kong.

Adam Hsu wrote in the forward to Su's Beng Bu how impressed he was with Su's collection of PM manuscripts.

I have done private exchanges with more than a few students and teachers just because I write on KFO.

How lucky we are that we can converse on the internet faster than the teachers of old could in order to share knowledge and e-mail info or manuscripts.

It is sad when someone looks at a method of knowledge exchange as a bad idea.

[Tainan Mantis]

1. Is this form also done as a solo exercise?
2. If so, who in the 2 man is doing the solo side? D or O?
3. Are any techniques I mentioned from sec. 1-3 in the form?

I believe the Su Yu Zhang branch may know this 2 man as I have heard it is done in Taipei, although have never seen how they do it.

If your solo form was exactly the same as mine I might be able to describe some parts of the 2 man. But as I can't recognize a single move from your manuscript I think it must be hopeless.

On the bright side, there is a published book with the 2 man for Seven Hands. It is most likely the same as your version.

I have seen the 8 step Hsiao Fan Che and Da Fan Che. Very different from 7 Star. But all the PM moves are still arranged in a logical way that makes performing the solo as a 2 man a snap.

That is one of the things I like about PM. That all the solo forms are arranged in a logical way so that they can be done as a 2 man set.

[18elders]

My shr-fu is Tainan Mantis's kung fu brother, he lived in Taiwan for almost 10 years and relocated back to Florida.
I agree with you about Tainan's knowledge and my Shr-fu's. You can try calling my shr-fu and make a trip down to Florida to train. Not too sure about the 2 person stuff though as i know that is what really distinguishes out style from others is Master Shr's knowledge of 2 person forms and drills and applications, so not sure if they want to give it out to other people.
I'll ask him about it.

Hey Tainan, what did you think of Master Jang's forms on the video?

[Tainan Mantis]

Good Points:
-Dzai Yao 2 man form is interesting
-Wah Lum version of Beng Bu is interesting. I didn't recognize it as Beng Bu the first time I saw it.

Bad points:
Zhang Bing Do's version of Dzai Yao doesn't follow his grand teacher Li Kun Shan's manuscript. He left out a significant chunk in the beginning.
So I'm worried, is this a further watering down and modification of the forms?

Later I'll make a compilation tape of PM, I'll put you and John on the list.

[Nutt'nhunny]

Isn't that what Sifu Camps are for? That and new material? I talked to Sifu Cimino after he got back from the last one. He said that you didn't go, but wouldn't tell me anymore about it. Sifu, do you still learn from Master Sun?

[EARTH DRAGON]

thank you for the invite and advice but I feel like I would be intruding or pushing my luck by asking to be priveledged to obtain knowledge from someone with whom I dont know. I am sure my shrfu would also be displeased to find out that I graciuosly offered his kindness without his consent, but thank you anyways you are very generous and possible when I am in florida I would stop by and say hi as I do with my freind chan pui and talk and bring a small gift. Last time I brought some real maple syrup from up north and he loved it! So possibly I will ask for his address when the time comes but thanks again

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[EARTH DRAGON]

The young sparrow set as far as I know it is a 2 man form only, and the only 2 man form that I have seen master shyun show. I do not recongnize or know what a figure 10 kick is, but we do have a tornado kick which you call Hsuan Feng Tuei I think that is the same. Also we have a low sweep like360 degree sweep kick like as shown in our 3rd set LIPI (powercut)
As far as D and O..... D stands for defender (yourself) and O for opponent so I would gather that if it can be done solo it would be D's play that would go alone however I do not know how?
I would love to get copy of chi sao (7 hands) book that you said has been published, however is it in taiwan in chinese or is it available in the US and where? PS you said this...
Later I'll make a compilation tape of PM, I'll put you and John on the list. can that also include me? and what where and when? ha ha please get to tapin'we cant wait

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[EARTH DRAGON]

you still havent told me who you are? so please excuse me for not answering you and the questions that you ask until I know who you are thanx again and please answer

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Nutt'nhunny]

Sifu, I want to tell you who I am, but I can't. I'm afraid you'll be mad at me. I like you very much, you've been a great teacher and I like the system. Its just that I feel that I will only be able to go so far at your school. Please don't take that the wrong way. Your very very good, its just a lot of little things. Like on the main site, it never mentions you at a Sifu camp? Is your learning cut off for some reason? Your name isn't on the list of schools. If I make it to gold level 5, will I even be able to test to become a Sifu? You know a lot of stuff, Its just that I want to be one of those great masters you read about, and I think I'll need higher education for that. Again you have been great for me, which is why I can't tell you who I am, please don't take it the wrong way,

Your student,

x

If my fears are ungrounded, just let me know and I'll be back at your school full force bringing in friends and doing everyhing I can to become a sifu.

[Tainan Mantis]

Earth Dragon,
I'm pretty sure that we are talking about different forms. i hope to see what yours looks like. As both of our Lipi and 7 hands forms are probably the same, are there any of the same moves?

Figure 10 kick- shr dz tuei. So named becuase of a slight resemblence to a Chinese # 10.
EG. A simultaneus right toe kick and left straight punch.

My lipi has two 180 sweeps. Did you make a mistake when you said lipi has a 360?

7 Hands, only in Chinese and only in Taiwan.

Right now I'm working on my 2nd video. It is the Eagle Claw form ba bu lien huan. It will include the 1 man and 2 man. I haven't started making the compilation tape, although I'm collecting materials. So, you wouldn't want to hold your breath.

The purpose of these tapes is for my students to remember the forms and also to make a lasting record of kung fu as it was in the beginning of the 21st century.
Don't you wish you could get your hands on Wang Lang's hand written manuscript?
Sorry, you can't. With each generation the kung fu changes.

Huang Han Hsun of Hong Kong 7 Star did his students a great service in publishing all the forms.
Although I'm no Huang but I think future generations will appreciate seeing past kung fu that I video.

Also I've just gotten permission from my Shr-fu to re-publish his lan jie book. This is the secret door version full of Zhang De Kuei doing the form. I'll also want to have it translated into English at some point.

Of course when these things become available I'll do my best to let everyone know about them.