Questions: Short versions of Taiji

[Skip J.]

teaching short forms instead of actual health adnd strength building excercises are good for ripping people off

Well, thats kinda hard to do when most of'em come down to the senior center and take classes for free.... they don't even have to pay to park... It's the instructor that feels ripped off... sorry... just my 2 cents worth...

[kuntao]

We start people off with an 8 move set. It has all the benefits of a short form that have already been mentioned and students can learn it quickly. So instead of spending a long time just learning choreography we can get to the internal principles of Tai Chi much sooner.

We find that this helps students gain a functional understanding of Tai Chi (both for health & self defense) much faster.


How you move is much more important than how many moves you know.

teaching short forms instead of actual health adnd strength building exercises are good for ripping people off

Teaching choreography instead of Tai Chi is good for ripping people off. Doesn't matter if it's long or short.

[bawang]

learning any kind of moves and techniques doesnt help u

u need to teach qigong and standing post

if u want ur students progress faster do standing post with weight vest holding medicine ball

then punch wit 25 pound dumbells in standnig post + hit sandbag lead qi to fists from dantian

do it for 2 years

[Skip J.]

learning any kind of moves and techniques doesnt help u

u need to teach qigong and standing post

if u want ur students progress faster do standing post with weight vest holding medicine ball

then punch wit 25 pound dumbells in standnig post + hit sandbag lead qi to fists from dantian

do it for 2 years

You must be talking about beginners in their 50's or younger, and in good physical condition to start with....

Not many taiji students that young and in good shape... a few - but not many....

[PQS]

I've just started Tai Chi and my teacher is just teaching the first five movements of the CMC form repeated a couple of times and that helps to understand the principles of pushing hands.
Regards
Peter

[Skip J.]

I've just started Tai Chi and my teacher is just teaching the first five movements of the CMC form repeated a couple of times and that helps to understand the principles of pushing hands.
Regards
Peter

Good to see you over here on the dark side Peter!

Coming from a combat background, you will fit into push hands well - once you shift into the basic taiji principles....

[mooyingmantis]

Skip,
Yes, each GM talked about how his particular short form was created before they began to teach them.

Bob

Bob,
Could you elaborate on this please?
How did they decide what to put in and what to leave out?
Were the short forms developed only for health benefits, or was self-defense taken into account?
Any pearls of wisdom that each Master dropped?

Thanks,
Richard

[Bob Ashmore]

Mooying,
I don't have much information beyond what I heard them say at the Symposium.
The most often asked question was if these were "simplified" forms, the answer was always, "easy forms, but not simplified".
I recall that most said that they were for health and for ease of teaching during a college semester.
What criteria they used to choose the forms and sequences...? I don't recall if that was brought up or not. I don't remember any specific discussions along those lines but I did not hear all the discussions as I was also working at the Symposium.

The one thing I recall the clearest relating to discussions over the short forms was from GM Yang Zhen Duo. During a panel discussion of Grand Masters with Scientists the question was raised over what was an ideal "short form" to teach someone who had limited time in which to learn.
GM Yang Zhen Duo held the opinion that only ONE form is necessary to teach someone both the health benefits and martial content rolled into one.
He then demonstrated this form for us. When it was asked why that one form and how it could be so beneficial for both health and martial he also demonstrated that as well.
For health aspects he spoke of the whole body movement, the integration of waist and hips and kua with upper body turning, chi and jin movement for internal aspects and how all of the thirteen energies were inherent in this one form.
He also used one of his disciples (Dave Barrett) to demonstrate how over all martialy applicable this one form was and how it included most of the martial aspects to be found in the entire traditional Yang family long form (hand).
It was an incredible eye opener. Well for me, at least. I'm sure a lot of the more accomplished people there knew this already.
The other GM's there agreed wholeheartedly that this single form was all that GM Yang Zhen Duo claimed it to be.
It's been my favorite form ever since the Symposium. I practice it all the time now with an entirely new insight into it's intricacies.

Bob

[PQS]

Good to see you over here on the dark side Peter!

Coming from a combat background, you will fit into push hands well - once you shift into the basic taiji principles....

Thanks I have been meaning to take up Tai Chi for years but have not had the time to train for more than 6 months before changing jobs so it has been good to find a good teacher who emphasises the Martial side. There aren't that many around here
Regards
Peter

[mawali]

Were the short forms developed only for health benefits, or was self-defense taken into account?
Thanks,
Richard

The short forms were mainly adapted for health but if one was taught the martial side then, sure, they would be applicable.

When you objectively examine a short form (4-6 minutes duration) taken from a long one (14-20min) they are essentially the same animal. The Yang style 88 (103/108), depending on how you count a posture, comes down to, when shortened, may be between 25-35 unique postures (never repeated). It is the repeated postures over the form duration that adds up to a "long form".

As long as you are physically active, incorporate the structure of the specific taijiquan form (jibengong and shenfa) then you are good to go!

[mooyingmantis]

Bob,
Thanks for sharing that story! Very insightful!
Richard

[Skip J.]

Thanks I have been meaning to take up Tai Chi for years but have not had the time to train for more than 6 months before changing jobs so it has been good to find a good teacher who emphasises the Martial side. There aren't that many around here
Regards
Peter

Hello Peter;

Yes, that is hard to do anywhere... congrats on your good fortune!

Train every chance you get.... you will be amazed at all of the small things in life that can be done in the Tai Chi manner every day.... especially walking any where you go, even just across the room.

For me, the absolute most difficult transition to make was letting the adrenalin surge go instead of stoking it to build the warrior spirit. Or, as as some folks my age over there would say, just..."let it be"...... After about 3 years I could move ahead beyond just the "empty form" but it sure did take me awhile...

[Skip J.]

Mooying,
I don't have much information beyond what I heard them say at the Symposium.
The most often asked question was if these were "simplified" forms, the answer was always, "easy forms, but not simplified".....When it was asked why that one form and how it could be so beneficial for both health and martial he also demonstrated that as well.
For health aspects he spoke of the whole body movement, the integration of waist and hips and kua with upper body turning, chi and jin movement for internal aspects and how all of the thirteen energies were inherent in this one form.
He also used one of his disciples (Dave Barrett) to demonstrate how over all martialy applicable this one form was and how it included most of the martial aspects to be found in the entire traditional Yang family long form (hand).
It was an incredible eye opener. Well for me, at least. I'm sure a lot of the more accomplished people there knew this already.
The other GM's there agreed wholeheartedly that this single form was all that GM Yang Zhen Duo claimed it to be.
It's been my favorite form ever since the Symposium. I practice it all the time now with an entirely new insight into it's intricacies.

Bob

What Bob said......

I can't speak about the other styles, but ours has 8 movements from the 24 and 8 more from intermediate forms; none of which were simplified, and none repeated, so all 16 are different from each other. It only takes about 3 minutes - but even an advanced guy can get a good workout from it.