Traditonal Versus Progressive Arts

[HumbleWCGuy]

In my gym we talk about the technician phase and the practitioner phase of training. The technician learns techniques and hones them to perfection although he/she may not be a master of application. The practitioner has understands timing rhythm, and application.

Often, in traditional arts students spend far too much time in the technician phase. That is people spend too much time drilling in unrealistic ways which might have great value for a time, but ultimately do not provide the student with the feedback necessary to become a practitioner. In progressive arts people enter into the practitioner phase too early. That's is too much heavy sparring and competition before developing a full skill set which leads to relying on very basic and limited skills just to survive.

Conclusion: People who spend a year or two doing solid traditional training and make the move to more progressive training techniques will be better fighters on average than those who strictly follow the traditional training or the progressive training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When did traditional stop being progressive?
We can have the best of both worlds.

[Knifefighter]

In progressive arts people enter into the practitioner phase too early.

No they don't.

Conclusion: People who spend a year or two doing solid traditional training and make the move to more progressive training techniques will be better fighters on average than those who strictly follow the traditional training or the progressive training.

No they won't.

[HumbleWCGuy]

When did traditional stop being progressive?
We can have the best of both worlds.

In reality, never, which is why I think that traditional arts still produce the best fighters.

[HumbleWCGuy]

No they don't.


No they won't.

You think that you can fight and you study bjj and kali. Are those not traditional arts?

[Knifefighter]

You think that you can fight and you study bjj and kali. Are those not traditional arts?

It's not the arts being traditional or not... it's the training and how soon you put it into practice. The sooner, the better. The best competitors in the world- BJJ, boxing, Judo, SAMBO, and MT- all start hard application early. The "waiting until you get all the basics down" just delays the process of really learning and gives one a huge disadvantage over the long run.

[HumbleWCGuy]

It's not the arts being traditional or not... it's the training and how soon you put it into practice. The sooner, the better. The best competitors in the world- BJJ, boxing, Judo, SAMBO, and MT- all start hard application early. The "waiting until you get all the basics down" just delays the process of really learning and gives one a huge disadvantage over the long run.

Since I know boxing and MT the best, I will speak to them. Both produce great fighters no doubt, but both also produce a lot of really sloppy fighters getting by on athletic ability, heart, and good chins.


I think that you have a point with the grappling arts. I think that the grappling arts might be a bit different because heavy sparring doesn't put people in mortal danger. Getting tapped out is annoying but one can feel free to experiment more in grappling.

[Frost]

Since I know boxing and MT the best, I will speak to them. Both produce great fighters no doubt, but both also produce a lot of really sloppy fighters getting by on athletic ability, heart, and good chins.

without sounding like a **** where are all the technical good traditionally based fighters then? where is the proof that a few years of solid training makes you a better fighter? Are they dominating K1, international full contact bouts, or MMA with there slick stand up skills?

I think that you have a point with the grappling arts. I think that the grappling arts might be a bit different because heavy sparring doesn't put people in mortal danger. Getting tapped out is annoying but one can feel free to experiment more in grappling.

Mortal danger?
Heavy sparring in class (stand up) is different than full contact fighting, just as full out grappling sparring is different from competition, in both cases you know your training partner and you know he will stop if you get hurt (most of the time) its not the same danger as you face in a fight where the opponent is not looking to get better or help you improve your game, but to actually hurt you

[YungChun]

There has to be a base... And depending on the art, each can choose how much of a base... They don't let the noobs at my local boxing gym spar until they get a 'good base'.... At least a few months..

WCK is more complicated than boxing and requires it's own base like it or not. (Then of course we can debate what that base should be and how to train it..)

The key is not one way or the other it's both.

In the beginning, the core training guides application, later application guides the core training.....

Folks get too complacent in their WCK training and go off on goofy tangents..

Low intensity or even boring repetition is very necessary, for *perfection work* grapplers/boxers do it too. But to do one to the near exclusion of the other is the error IMO.

What most train is really Ving Tsun Do, not Ving Tsun Kuen...

[uki]

most traditions progress...

[t_niehoff]

This is a classic example of how-I-think/want-things-should/to-be (theoretical nonfighter) POV versus this-is-what-the-evidence-shows (fighter) POV.

[Kansuke]

Um, the 'progressive' arts want to redistribute all your money?

[k gledhill]

Um, the 'progressive' arts want to redistribute all your money?

nailed it ...

[Dragonzbane76]

Um, the 'progressive' arts want to redistribute all your money?

over long periods of time.

[Kansuke]

over long periods of time.

Well, F those arts then.