Traditonal Versus Progressive Arts

[sanjuro_ronin]

In kyokushin, as well as judo ( two examples I am very familiar with, "freestyle" sparring happens as soon as possible.
The amount of contact allowed in kyokushin is dependant,to an extent, on how comfortable the rookie is.
Same thing goes for boxing and MT.
Those systems, by the way, are all, basically, traditional systems.

[HumbleWCGuy]

There has to be a base... And depending on the art, each can choose how much of a base... They don't let the noobs at my local boxing gym spar until they get a 'good base'.... At least a few months..

WCK is more complicated than boxing and requires it's own base like it or not. (Then of course we can debate what that base should be and how to train it..)

The key is not one way or the other it's both.

In the beginning, the core training guides application, later application guides the core training.....

Folks get too complacent in their WCK training and go off on goofy tangents..

Low intensity or even boring repetition is very necessary, for *perfection work* grapplers/boxers do it too. But to do one to the near exclusion of the other is the error IMO.

What most train is really Ving Tsun Do, not Ving Tsun Kuen...

Exactly, martial arts is more complicated than boxing so depending on a person's dedication it may take a anywhere from 6 months to 2 years before they can ramp up their training considerably.

[HumbleWCGuy]

without sounding like a **** where are all the technical good traditionally based fighters then? where is the proof that a few years of solid training makes you a better fighter? Are they dominating K1, international full contact bouts, or MMA with there slick stand up skills?


Mortal danger?
Heavy sparring in class (stand up) is different than full contact fighting, just as full out grappling sparring is different from competition, in both cases you know your training partner and you know he will stop if you get hurt (most of the time) its not the same danger as you face in a fight where the opponent is not looking to get better or help you improve your game, but to actually hurt you

My point is that starting traditional and then moving to a more progressive style of training is the most beneficial. The only ones that I can list are the ones that started in karate or TKD and then moved to something that uses progressive training. One can go into a Muay Thai gym and get the same level of coaching, but I don't see it as often in the U.S. because instructors are usually interested in running guys to smokers to build their reputation.

Anderson Silva
Duke Roufus
Rick Roufus
Andy Hug
Bas Rutten
Loyoto Machida


Mortal was an overstatement, I assumed that a reader could handle it and move on.
FYI-Heavy sparring is full-contact sparring. And, when beginners are forced into it before they have a full-command of basic offense and defense, they develop sloppy habits. Getting punched and kicked hard without having a command of basic offense and defense is not a good situation whether it is in the class or the ring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My point is that starting traditional and then moving to a more progressive style of training is the most beneficial. The only ones that I can list are the ones that started in karate or TKD and then moved to something that uses progressive training. One can go into a Muay Thai gym and get the same level of coaching, but I don't see it as often in the U.S. because instructors are usually interested in running guys to smokers to build their reputation.

Anderson Silva
Duke Roufus
Rick Roufus
Andy Hug
Bas Rutten
Loyoto Machida

FYI-Heavy sparring is full-contact sparring. And, when beginners are forced into it before they have a full-command of basic offense and defense, they develop sloppy habits.

You can add George St.Pierre to that list too.

[Knifefighter]

There has to be a base... And depending on the art, each can choose how much of a base... They don't let the noobs at my local boxing gym spar until they get a 'good base'.... At least a few months..

WCK is more complicated than boxing and requires it's own base like it or not. (Then of course we can debate what that base should be and how to train it..)

.

BJJ is 10 times more complicated than WC, but that doesn't stop them from sparring relatively soon.

[Knifefighter]

You can add George St.Pierre to that list too.

Why do many of those guys have traditional backgrounds? Because if you started off as a kid, those were the types of programs your parents put you in. Most fighters, cr@ppy and good, had some kind of karate or kung fu training as kids.

[HumbleWCGuy]

BJJ is 10 times more complicated than WC, but that doesn't stop them from sparring relatively soon.

I agree, but it is much easier to spar regularly and hard with a bjj beginner than a beginner in upright fighting because there is not a severe consequence for not having all of the skills.

[Knifefighter]

And, when beginners are forced into it before they have a full-command of basic offense and defense, they develop sloppy habits. Getting punched and kicked hard without having a command of basic offense and defense is not a good situation whether it is in the class or the ring.

Getting into sparring and competition early has nothing to do with being sloppy. Being sloppy has to do with bad coaching and or not being "coachable". The guys with sloppy technique would be sloppy even if they didn't compete. While they may be "sloppy", they are better fighters than if they wouldn't have the sparring/competition under their belts.

[m1k3]

I agree, but it is much easier to spar regularly and hard with a bjj beginner than a beginner in upright fighting because there is not a severe consequence for not having all of the skills.

Unless you are the person rolling with the beginner. I think the spaz factor causes more injuries in BJJ/grappling than anything else.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Why do many of those guys have traditional backgrounds? Because if you started off as a kid, those were the types of programs your parents put you in. Most fighters, cr@ppy and good, had some kind of karate or kung fu training as kids.

If that style of training is wholesale crap then there should be no reason why the list of people who started in traditional arts is also a list of standouts. It should provide no advantage.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Unless you are the person rolling with the beginner. I think the spaz factor causes more injuries in BJJ/grappling than anything else.

I had to laugh when I saw this. My buddy just got to where he started hammering beginners because he was sick of getting hurt.

[Knifefighter]

WC is only "more complicated" than boxing because it has so many "filler" techniques and training methods that don't translated well into fighting.

Boxing and MT are just as complicated, and probably more so, in terms of what works.

[Knifefighter]

If that style of training is wholesale crap then there should be no reason why the list of people who started in traditional arts is also a list of standouts. It should provide no advantage.

It doesn't. You will also find that just as many (probably more) second and third rate fighters also have traditional backgrounds.

[Knifefighter]

Unless you are the person rolling with the beginner. I think the spaz factor causes more injuries in BJJ/grappling than anything else.

If you are an advanced BJJ practioner and are getting injured by beginners, you aren't really advanced after all.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Getting into sparring and competition early has nothing to do with being sloppy. Being sloppy has to do with bad coaching and or not being "coachable". The guys with sloppy technique would be sloppy even if they didn't compete. While they may be "sloppy", they are better fighters than if they wouldn't have the sparring/competition under their belts.

I am not advocating that people stop competing and sparring in upright to become better fighters. I am just suggesting that a slower process of developing fighters is a better one.
Jumping straight into sparring and fighting will create a competent fighters more quickly but it does not produce great fighters with complete skill sets.