Traditonal Versus Progressive Arts

[Hardwork108]

Please tell me where i said anything about recomending OL lifting for internal practise?

Your argument/discussion with the poster David who said that his Chow Gar methodology did not use weight training and then with me when I agreed with him, not to mention questioning my Olympic Weight Training qualifications , IMPLIES that you see such weight training as beneficial to Internal practice, which Chow Gar is! All this happened in the "Dynamic Tensions in Forms" thread, here:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...t=55375&page=3

i never mentioned internal once in any of my posts to you...

the whole subject matter that originated the discussion was regarding Chow Gar methodologies.

Chow Gar is an Internal style of kung fu.

Yep, isn't the world full of surprises? LOL

i did say modern methods of lifting can help train force development and explosivness as well as any methods ....

And on one level (mainly external) you would be correct.

nor did i mention chow gar for that matter but feel free to prove me wrong with a single quote

Again, the alternative (to yours) was the Chow Gar methodology that was discussed by the poster David and by myself.

Some of your demeaning comments were made to/in reference to a Chow Gar practitioner, who was stating that weight training was seen as counter productive to the body developments of that style. Or did I miss something and did not see that you were perhaps demeaning White Crane methodologies? LOL!

Obviously, none of you who jumped on his head, so to speak (and then on mine) had a notion of that methodology. Of course, none of you admitted your unfamiliarity either. How could you, after all you had "decades of experience" in MAs and of course, everyone knows that MMA-ists know everything about the MAs. LOL

Tell me, do you now believe that one can develop effective martial power without the use of weight training?

nope you style hop and try to pretend you and only you train TCMA,

Keep selling the lies......not only your lack of knowledge regarding Internal TCMA methodologies is transparent, but so is your insecurity.

i trained tcma directly under a master recognised by the hakka community in the UK as authentic

The world is full of people who have trained tcmas under great masters...LOL Look at the quality of some of the so called Yip Man disciples. I could swear that some of them would have moved on to MMA and grappling, like you did, if there was not so much money to be made in the Wing Chun business....LOL

i completed all the system under him bar a few weapons forms before moving on.

Moving on to grappling and MMA?...LOL

Which means a learned all that styles empty handed forms, all the ging training, body conditionng, meditation methods etc. I was also being trained to drum for the lion dance team and do the unicorn dance, so i know what is and is not authentic

Yet you were clueless in regards to the Chow Gar strength development methodology in question. Furthermore, you (nor others) had a notion of the significance of building up your back within that methodology!!!

There is only one person here clueless about the above and its not me

Not according to the facts.....

i train MMA with a guy who got 7 fighters ready for the UFC events over here last year

BRAVO, BRAVO, BRAVO!

so i have a good frame of reference to talk about MMA and sports training,

No one is questioning your frame of reference as regards MMA and sports training...It is your TCMA knowledge that was in question specially in that particular thread and in regards that particular methodology which has many practices that are not in the public domain.

You, whats your frame of reference again?.... oh thats right you don't have one

My frame of reference is my TCMA experience, which is not great in the grand TCMA scale of things, but it is definitely more than you and some of your MMA buddies.

Furthermore, I post my TCMA statements in a TCMA forum and not an MMA one. HINT!

we are jack of all trades hey, lets see those that you insult have actually completed systems, some under very well known masters,

The world is full of people who have "completed" systems under well known "masters". Yet the Mcdojo phenomenon is very real as also proven by you and your "kung fu-ist" MMA/cross training colleagues here.

you are the one style hoping here mate not us

Do continue with your misinformation as your desperation is entertaining from where I am sitting. LOL

When you find yourself disagreeing with almost everyone who has ever actually trained TCMA you might ant to stop and look deep within yourself... the problem might be with you and your lack of authentic training and not with them

In the real world out there, almost everyone who thinks that he has practiced authentic TCMA, has NOT!!!

It is called the Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenon. You keep forgetting this phenomenon, while you and thousands like you have been feeding it for a relatively long time.....

Its easy to convince us, tell us who you trained with and for how long, i am sure that between us we know enough masters to find someone to back up your story...how about it?

Who is "us"? The MMA/Cross trainers with the now famous "decades of experience" tag? LOL!

You mean that you want me to name sifus that you don't know, who teach TCMA methodologies that you are unfamiliar with, on the world wide web (none of whom are very fond of), so that you and your MMA/Cross training friends can give me the appropriate accreditation to carry on making statements on authentic TCMA methodologies that all of you (MMA/cross training) guys lack understanding in? And in a KUNG FU FORUM, at that? LOL!

How old are you?

By the way, I don't need to know who your "masters" were to know the limitations of your TCMA understanding. All I have needed so far was to read your posts.....

According to you, as i said list your masters and ill list mine, not those you have trained with via a third party but those masters you have directly had access to for years, and i'll do the same....how about it?

You can list all the masters you want and it won't change a thing. You are no TCMA-ist!

Your knowledge or lack of, come through your posts. Even your profile says a lot about how you "see" the TCMAs!!!!

Now, hurry along and change your profile before others see it as well....LOL

And as i said you should probably takecare as to who you are talking about, you are the one with no listed background in TCMA,

My TCMA knowledge is reflected in my posts and statements regarding the subject matter of TCMAs (Not Cross training/BJJ/MMA!), just as your lack of knowledge is reflected in yours in the Dynamic Tension in Forms thread.

You can list all the masters you want but you do not have any knowledge nor understanding of the Chow Gar methodology in question!

its you who seem to be a jack of all here not the people you insult all the time

Continue with the disinformation all you want and while you do that go on and have a look at your own profile...LOL

What lies,

The lies that accuse me of being a Jack of All Trades. Obviously you have missed certain connections that some Southern fist styles share, but that is OK as you don't actually practice TCMAs.

that you have not finished one single system

I have got news for you most people posting here have not finished a single authentic kung fu system and that includes you!

The fact remains that if you train in an authentic kung fu school then you will have a better understanding of the TCMAs and the various concepts than someone who has "completed" a "kung fu" system in a McKwoon (the world and by extension this forum is full of such "experts").

or can name one single master/authentic lineage holder you have trained with,

As I said, naming them will not change the fact that you are clueless about the methodologies in question.

Furthermore you wouldn't know them from Adam and of course, none of them have Olympic Weight lifting credentials that are so valued by this forum's knucklehead community...LOL

that you have no knowledge of MMA or weightlifting

And that is why I limit my posts to the kung fu threads. Why don't you show the same consideration and limit yours to the MMA ones!

yet you like to make silly ill informed remaks about both those things

Can you please show me where I have made ill informed remarks about the above so that perhaps I can explain myself?

....am I lieing when I say these things?

Who knows? You tell me, by giving examples of my "ill informed remarks"!

I know is that you lie every time you call me a jack of all trades, not to mention that such a statement is ironic coming from a MMA-ist such as yourself..LOL!

[Frost]

Jesus we have gone through this before, show me where i said anything about chow gar or so called internal training....... my posts with david were about his total lack of understanding about modern strength training, not once did i mention internal, chow gar etc, please put up or shut up, don't just link a thread show me a specific quote about chow gar, internal etc from me.

then i will show you quotes you made about weight training and OL lifting, and about sports training, until then i'll stop replying to you as its obvious what you are

[Hardwork108]

Its obvious that this guy just trolls around because he's on the computer pretty much all day and goes from one person / argument to the next. Kinda odd that someone who trains so often in traditional arts seems to have so much time available to talk on the internet.

Then again we know that he can't describe any real training or experience of any kind...be it traditional, modern, progressive, or internal for that matter. So that means he probably doesn't train at all.

It's probably good if we ALL just ignore him and not take the bait that he leaves anymore. Since he's an attention seeker, the only way to be rid of him is to deprive him of his desire...attention.

If you keep "ignoring" me the way you are then I am going to end up inviting you to my birthday party.....

Hey, by the way, how is your "Mushin what's the magic" training coming along?
Have you gotten close to getting some "emotional stabillity" yet? LOL!

Anyway, I hope that you get there soon so that you stop making untruthful statements about me!

[Hardwork108]

Jesus we have gone through this before, show me where i said anything about chow gar or so called internal training....... my posts with david were about his total lack of understanding about modern strength training, not once did i mention internal, chow gar etc, please put up or shut up, don't just link a thread show me a specific quote about chow gar, internal etc from me.
then i will show you quotes you made about weight training and OL lifting, and about sports training, until then i'll stop replying to you as its obvious what you are

I answered you in my previous post. Now answer my questions please!

By the way, going back to this thread's subject matter I would say that most of us can make our TCMA training more progressive if we explore the hidden and the more subtler elements and aspects of our given styles of kung fu.

There is a lot that some people miss out before going on "progressing" through cross training in none TCMAs.

[Dragonzbane76]

frost why on earth would you try to have a conversation with "it"???
you know the responses your going to recieve. YOu will not get anything back that you haven't heard before a million times from "it". HW8 is the bottom of the barrel when it comes to conversation and understanding of others that do MA's. He's a waste of space and air. He probably sits in front of his computer in his mom's basement eatting cheetos, thinking he's a 'bad' azz because he can talk about MA's from all the wikipedia he's read. (later he'll go into his room of pleasure to think of Ross) He's the A typical "i'm a bad azz" master KF dim mak, head full of crap douchbag. plain and simple, he thinks hes got all the answers, but in reality he's further from the truth than any other person here.

[SAAMAG]

frost why on earth would you try to have a conversation with "it"???
you know the responses your going to recieve. YOu will not get anything back that you haven't heard before a million times from "it". HW8 is the bottom of the barrel when it comes to conversation and understanding of others that do MA's. He's a waste of space and air. He probably sits in front of his computer in his mom's basement eatting cheetos, thinking he's a 'bad' azz because he can talk about MA's from all the wikipedia he's read. (later he'll go into his room of pleasure to think of Ross) He's the A typical "i'm a bad azz" master KF dim mak, head full of crap douchbag. plain and simple, he thinks hes got all the answers, but in reality he's further from the truth than any other person here.

Yep...truth requires experience...he has none it seems. Frost, don't fall for his twisting of the subject matter. He's a troll. He only talks this way to draw in people for attention, and knows the ensuing arguments he has can only be had on the internet because in real life he'd be slapped around [or worse] for acting this way.

Don't feed the troll.

[Hardwork108]

I believe that in order for one to train progressively one has to attempt to understand his art as fully as one can, in all of its dimensions.

Taking the art Wing Chun as an example, it has to be understood that there is more to the first form, Siu Nim Tao/Siu Lin Tao then just building your stance and learning the principles. There is an Internal side to this that many (including so called "sifus") miss.

Technically speaking, there are a lot of fighting techniqesthat one can use within the principles of Wing Chun. Not all schools train all the arsenal that is contained within this style, including the Chin-na and ground fighting - using Wing Chun fighting concepts and principles.

Anytime one speaks of chi sao, then many confusions seem to arise. Some see it just as an exercise that will get you to "feel" your opponent and get you used to touching hands and getting used to WC principles and structure in action.

However, IMHO there is more to chi sao. This exercise is on one level a transitional exercise to real sparring, while on another level it gets you on the eternal road to fine tune your "sensitivity" and "listening" abilities through ever increasing "softness". This path is eternal and takes you towards the Internal goals.

Proper "sticking" skills cannot be achieved to their highest levels without an intense fine tuning of "sensitivity" and "listening" ablities.

The Biu Jee form, at least in our Lineage contains study of huanan anatomy and the various "energies" and angles involved in hitting certain parts of the body.

Iron Palm and Iron Body are also studied.

There are other aspects as well.

Taking into account all the above (and more), one can only recommend TCMA-ists to first understand and practice their arts, in this case Wing Chun, in all of its aspects.

This approach is in self progressive and only good things will come from it. They can take things futher years down the line by training in other kung fu styles or if they are so inclined they may even train in sports martial arts?

However, whatever one decides to do, one has to first fully understand their given kung fu style,before attempting a "progressive" path as progressiveness will start within ones attempt at an holistic comprehension of his given style of TCMA,IMHO.

HW108

[Northwind]

...snip...
Chow Gar is an Internal style of kung fu.
...snip...

I didn't know this. I trained only a wee-bit of Chow Gar (is this the same as Chou jia quan?) in Singapore, and could see the soft & hard in the style, but never got deep enough into the system to see the internals specifically. Cool to know this

[Hardwork108]

I didn't know this. I trained only a wee-bit of Chow Gar (is this the same as Chou jia quan?) in Singapore, and could see the soft & hard in the style, but never got deep enough into the system to see the internals specifically. Cool to know this

I believe that the Chow Gar (Chow family) lineage of Chou jia quan, that you practiced is not a Mantis style but a mixture of Hung Gar, Northern Shaolin and a third style the name of which I don't know.

I found this clip on Youtube of Zhou jia quan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pDc7ocvdv4

If this is the same style that you practiced then it will for sure have Internal elements as most, if not all, kung fu styles do (as part of Yin and Yang principles present within all TCMAs). The only difference would be the individual Internal methodologies distinct to a given style; the time that they manifest themselves and or the general emphasis within the curriculum.

The Chow Gar (Tong Long) that I practice enters the realm of the Internals from almost day one. Great emphasis is based on the development of tendons. This is also seen as part of the Internals of this style. The stances are short and the fighting range is medium to close.

Here is a clip of the current holder of this lineage Grand Master David Ip who is the son of the late Grand Master Ip Sui during an open air seminar in Hungary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mDk...eature=related

The differences between the two styles are great but I am sure that there are also some similarities.

[Northwind]

Actually the one in Singapore looks vaguely similar, but it's a different group for sure. However it's not the same as the tang lang one for sure.