Leitai Rules for Mantis Competition

[mooyingmantis]

It really amazes me that martial artists are so afraid of being kicked in the nuts. We ALWAYS have practiced this way in my schools. I can't count how many times I have been kicked in the nutsack. The hardest I have ever been kicked was about two months ago by my son (5' 10" tall, 175 lbs, 15 yr old bodybuilder and jujutsu/mantis practitioner). He kicked me full contact and no mercy during training for the upcoming Great Lakes tourney that John Ervin and Gino Belfiore are sponsoring. I was in pain for over a month. Yet, according to my wife, everything still works just fine.
I am not advocating a "lets try to put his nuts between his ears and crack his pelvis" type of kick. Control should be used (please someone tell that to my son. ).
However, since it is a very common street attack used by most thugs, shouldn't we train against it???

BTW, my leitai is still waiting. Hate to see it collecting dust.

[Three Harmonies]

Do you have the stat's on it being a "very common street attack?"

It happens enough accidentally that I do not think it is necessary to train it, as the risk to reward ratio is jacked in this one. Same with eyes and small joints. And honestly it would not be a fight ender with someone who REALLY wanted to clean your clock.

JAB

[mooyingmantis]

Do you have the stat's on it being a "very common street attack?"

No, sorry I never had a statistician around during a fight. I can only report what I have seen and experienced. Plus what others have seen, experienced and reported back to me. **** those statisticians!

It happens enough accidentally that I do not think it is necessary to train it, as the risk to reward ratio is jacked in this one. Same with eyes and small joints.

Jabs, hooks, crosses and tackles happen enough too. Should we not train against them? I would rather KNOW the probability of getting kicked in the nuts than have a false sense of security that it only MIGHT happen.

And honestly it would not be a fight ender with someone who REALLY wanted to clean your clock.

Agreed, I never said it was a "fight ender". I was still on my feet and continued to fight after my son rang my bells.

It is just another tool. I think any tool that an attacker can use against me is a good tool to train against.

I understand that this type of training is not for everyone. I don't have a problem with that.

However, groin strikes are assuredly a part of mantis forms. So, if you practice mantis, I would think you would want to train ALL the fighting methods. Guess I'm just silly that way.

As for leitai, I am willing to train under any rule set I have seen. I still think mantis has enough diversity within its techniques to compete on level ground with any other system. Even traditional jujutsu and yoshinkan aikido use a similar entering method to our gou lou cai.

Gloves or no gloves and kicks or no kicks, our techniques can be modified to meet the challenge in my opinion.

[B.Tunks]

but, you seem to be saying that it's going to take a mantis vs. mantis venue to do that when that sort of testing should already be happening in your daily practice.

it seems an unnecessary step and therefore a waste of time.

practice intelligently (including hard contact sparring) and then step into a nuetral venue to test it.

I agree 100%.

[B.Tunks]

Should there be a venue within mantis that encourages full contact with an emphasis on core mantis techniques? If yes, then what are those techniques and what would the rules look like that would encourage those techniques?

There are are already suitable rulesets in existance - Sanda, Kuoshu Leitai, etc. But if you want to get more specific there is Chuantong Tanglang Sanda. But even there, the rules are pretty close to sports sanda but use open fingered (or MMA gloves) and there is increased weighting on certain techniques - waist cutting, hook kicks etc. But as Oso pointed out, full contact sparring should already be a part of your Tanglang training so this format is only really useful for those that are interested in competition.

BT

[B.Tunks]

well, the ego and face thing wouldn't be an issue if they were secure in their abilities.

TCMA has become pu$$ified, as you put it, because of the ego and face that prevents them from just stepping in to any ring and going for it.

Whining about someone else's rule set not favoring your chosen skillset pretty much just means you've wasted your time in a practice that is not broadly applicable.

While Judo, MT, Sambo and all those others do have their own competitions practitioners from those styles ( i guess with the exception of SC: Are there any SC players competing in mma? ) have been able to transition to MMA venues without having to change what they are doing. You can tell a judo throw when it happens, you can tell a Thai kick when it happens, you can tell a wrestling takedown or a jujitsu lock or choke...all because those things will work no matter who their opponent is.

If you can't throw a mantis technique of your choice and make it work for you then the problem is either with you or the technique.

(note: 'you' is being use impersonallly)

You won't find an 'mma' player whining about the ruleset at your shiai or your lei tai is all I'm saying.

On the money all the way.

[mooyingmantis]

There are are already suitable rulesets in existance - Sanda, Kuoshu Leitai, etc. But if you want to get more specific there is Chuantong Tanglang Sanda. But even there, the rules are pretty close to sports sanda but use open fingered (or MMA gloves) and there is increased weighting on certain techniques - waist cutting, hook kicks etc. But as Oso pointed out, full contact sparring should already be a part of your Tanglang training so this format is only really useful for those that are interested in competition.

BT

Where would one find the Chuantong Tanglang Sanda rules? Is there a website?

[B.Tunks]

A lot of talk about gou, lou, cai in here. Tanglang is not all gou, lou, cai. And as far as scoring it higher in any comp all it does is encourage a relatively simple technique that is only applicable in certain circumstances to be used out of context and at a higher frequency.

[B.Tunks]

As I've said - it's very similar to sports sanda but with open handed gloves (of your choosing). Headgear and other protective gear also of your choosing. Should judges deem it relevant, Tanglang specific techniques are weighted higher (however ineffective deployment of TL specific techs will not outweigh solid 'generic' techs such as standard punches and kicks). Round times optional (anything from a single 3 minute round to the more common 3 X 2 or 3 X 1.5 for novice). Use of the 2 round victory optional. Use of Leitai optional. Throws/knockdowns/takedowns outweigh strikes. Victory by K.O, submission or decision. Nothing magical here.

BT

[B.Tunks]

Make your own rules up.

[mooyingmantis]

As I've said - it's very similar to sports sanda but with open handed gloves (of your choosing). Headgear and other protective gear also of your choosing. Should judges deem it relevant, Tanglang specific techniques are weighted higher (however ineffective deployment of TL specific techs will not outweigh solid 'generic' techs such as standard punches and kicks). Round times optional (anything from a single 3 minute round to the more common 3 X 2 or 3 X 1.5 for novice). Use of the 2 round victory optional. Use of Leitai optional. Throws/knockdowns/takedowns outweigh strikes. Victory by K.O, submission or decision. Nothing magical here.

BT

Brendan,
Thanks! I had never heard of that rule set, so I appreciate your more detailed explanation of how it works.

Taking this in my original context, I did not feel we needed a new venue for mantis in sport fighting. My original idea was for mantis practitioners to be able to get together and practice their techniques in a sparring scenario. It wasn't to be a "competition" but rather a means of learning the strengths and weaknesses of our particular styles of mantis. A meeting of the minds that could assess each others understanding of mantis strategies and techniques.

[MightyB]

While Judo, MT, Sambo and all those others do have their own competitions practitioners from those styles ( i guess with the exception of SC: Are there any SC players competing in mma? ) have been able to transition to MMA venues without having to change what they are doing. You can tell a judo throw when it happens, you can tell a Thai kick when it happens, you can tell a wrestling takedown or a jujitsu lock or choke...all because those things will work no matter who their opponent is.

One thing I want to point out is the reason a Judoka or a Jiu Jitsu player can transition their techniques to MMA is because of the tens of thousands of times that they've used their technique against practitioners of their base style. Heck - we'll practice uchi-komi 100 times on a simple throw as a warm up even though we've done that throw thousands of times over the course of training. That translates to the ability to use it under any circumstance.

The ruleset that B. Tunks's described which weighs mantis technique more heavily in a sanda context is spot on. I've never heard of that but I like it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is a reason why MMA decided to rule against certain things like hitting the back of the neck, eye attacks, biting, groin kicking and such and the reason was that, typicaly, these things were NO as effective as everyone thought and that they just possesed undue risk with no real reason to be used.
Over the man decades of NHB fiighting where ALL was premitted, the number of fights that were WON because of a groin attack or eye attack or bite or whatever were so minimal, so insignificante that you really couldn't justify the POTENTIAL injury to the potential victory ratio.
In other words, the best fighters won regardless of rules so why not protect them from needless injury?
Lets be honest here, with all techniques being allowed, which means ALL people can use them, is their ANY advantage to having them allowed?