Leitai Rules for Mantis Competition

[B.Tunks]

I witnessed / was involved with a bit while bouncing for over 6 years. Some observations:
I have never seen the following:
-groin shot (have seen the twins grabbed though)
-purposeful eye poke / rake / gouge

J,

Seriously never saw nut shots or eye gouging? ****, polite patrons in your clubs.

BT

[B.Tunks]

and there are already leitai rules for tanglang. they are pretty much no different to those that already exist for guoshu and are not much diff to sanda, apart from diff gloves and categories for experience (no brainers such as no knees and elbows for begginers). all you need to do is decide whether you want to go to submission or ground or have a timed limit in clinches and on the ground. in my opinion if you have any TL fighting skills you should even be able to fight with straight kickboxing or modified thai rules.

[mooyingmantis]

and there are already leitai rules for tanglang. they are pretty much no different to those that already exist for guoshu and are not much diff to sanda, apart from diff gloves and categories for experience (no brainers such as no knees and elbows for begginers). all you need to do is decide whether you want to go to submission or ground or have a timed limit in clinches and on the ground. in my opinion if you have any TL fighting skills you should even be able to fight with straight kickboxing or modified thai rules.

Brendan,
Could you be more specific on those rules or point me in a direction that has them?

Jake,
Who are you quoting about "illegal" techniques? I didn't see that here. IMHO, bar fights rarely fall under the category of self-defense necessary to save one's life. However, I have worked in the inner cities in two states and in those areas ANYTHING goes.

Phil,
Wing Chun peeps would definitely be welcome.

Thanks for all who are responding to the questions!
Richard

[Oso]

100% on the money.

If you remove the prohibition on groin strikes, then you might as well remove it for eyes, throat and back of head. No rules is for real fighting, and not very conducive for developing skills in an 'exchange' situation. Better off bringing a knife.

BT

or someone you don't like very much who runs slower than you


Hi Jake...yea, not really 'on the scene' much these days...but i saw this thread and had to...

[SanHeChuan]

If you remove the prohibition on groin strikes, then you might as well remove it for eyes, throat and back of head.

Groin strikes where legal when I was 10 sparing in TKD. Make the cup pop and get your points. But your right it must be teh d34dly if 10 year olds can take it.

[MightyB]

Who are you quoting about "illegal" techniques? I didn't see that here.

I didn't see anybody saying anything illegal- as for groin strikes- I'm not a fan, but they have been allowed in other competitions.

Basically I advocate San Shou rules with MMA gloves so that you can diu sau. WTF is mantis without the diu sau? and then F*cking encourage using the diu sau, choi sum sau, etc - even fan che techniques and give props to the peeps who try to use them. You want to see mantis? encourage mantis techniques... give 'em preference for trying. Mantis techniques are difficult to execute- even more so if you're never encouraged to try. I see this type of rule system really helping to encourage better mantis. And yes to the ground with a time limit--- Sport Ju Jitsu style.

[SanHeChuan]

San Shou rules
Gloves like this
Head gear like this
Slip on Shin guards like this
Cup and mouth piece.
On a leitai
+5 point for mantis techniques.
1 minute stand up for ground fighting. Give point for moving from submissive position to standing and submissions only.
Qualified medical personnel on site.

Go.

[mooyingmantis]

MightyB,

Excellent points! Agreed, if mantis is not demonstrated what is the point? Go to a karate or MMA tournament. The point of this gathering would be to work Mantis in sparring as a learning experience, not beat the hell out of each other.
As for groin strikes, I have always preferred them, since it makes peeps kick a little more conservatively (knowing they may be "popped" while doing outrageous kicks). Though grappling does the same.

Sanhechuan,
Thanks for the links! Looks like good stuff for what we would be doing.
Yes, we would definitely have a paramedic present.

Richard

[B.Tunks]

I think Mighty B and SHC's posts have your rules covered. No need to regurgitate ours here. Basically the same.

BT

[cerebus]

My own recommendation would be Lei Tai rules like the ones used by USKSF. Open-finger gloves, allowing grabs, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend allowing chin na, just grabs & sweeps/ throws. Chin na can be trained more safely in a grappling context (both stand-up and on the ground). Allow knees & elbows. Headgear (but not the face-cage type). No shin or instep pads allowed. That just develops the habit of using movements that will get your shins & insteps messed up when you're not wearing pads. In my opinion you need to learn to use techniques that won't get you injured when you're not wearing the gear. I've seen guys who train with shin/instep pads throw power roundhouse kicks in matches that don't allow those pads and totally mess up their shins or insteps when their opponent covers their body with an elbow or knee... ouch!

[Oso]

keep in mind that most sport fighting venues don't have many rules against the type of attack but against specific targets.

if you can't adapt what you know to any sport venue then how the hell do you expect to adapt it to the street where you have no ****ing clue what is coming at you?

[Three Harmonies]

Exactly Oso!

[mooyingmantis]

keep in mind that most sport fighting venues don't have many rules against the type of attack but against specific targets.

if you can't adapt what you know to any sport venue then how the hell do you expect to adapt it to the street where you have no ****ing clue what is coming at you?

I agree with the first statement, but not the second. If you are adapting and limiting, then you are not practicing your full repertoire of techniques in a combat setting. I teach my students to fight brutally for the street, the telephone booth, the restroom stall, etc. These places cause true adapting and limiting.

Perhaps I have not been clear on the type of leitai I am talking about. We practice on a six, then a four foot platform (perhaps I mentioned that in another thread rather than in this thread). It has little to do with modern MMA fighting, but is far more realistic for training self-defense techniques.

In practical self-defense you may be engaging a attacker who is invading your home while you are in the shower. What type of "grappling" are you willing to do when you are naked and your head's are crammed between the toilet and the sink counter? How high can you kick when you are standing exposed at a bathroom urinal with an attacker coming up from behind you? I think simple praying mantis techniques are ideal for these situations.

Again, the leitai I am offering is not the typical, "let's see who is Billy Bad-Ass among us", but rather let's see how our techniques work when forced to react spontaneously in very cramped quarters. I think that would be very informative given the various types of praying mantis kung fu represented on this forum.
Eye and groin protection would be a must. Shin protection would be a must for receiving techniques rather than delivering them. Open fingered gloves would be ideal for protecting the hands against tears when hitting an opponent (which was the original reason for the development of boxing gloves).
Chalk out a four foot diameter (not radius) circle on the floor and decide what techniques you can practically do in that area.
That is the leitai I am talking about. Perhaps leitai is not even the right word. But it is the one I use, because we do it on a platform.

Regards,
Richard

[MightyB]

keep in mind that most sport fighting venues don't have many rules against the type of attack but against specific targets.

if you can't adapt what you know to any sport venue then how the hell do you expect to adapt it to the street where you have no ****ing clue what is coming at you?

This is where problems come in - serious sport fighters use rules to their advantage. I'll use Judo to make my point - Some people are adepts of "koka-Jitsu" Which is kind've a derogatory statement used to describe a person who uses the rules for an advantage. For example - you wear a judo-gi that's really, really tight to make it difficult for the opponent to grip. Some go as far as to have their gis tailored. That person then spends time learning grip fighting techniques as a stall that doesn't look like a stall. What they then do is go into the match - get a sloppy Koka advantage, then stall until the timer runs out.

THAT'S TRULY ADAPTING TO A SPORTS VENUE.

Ever hear of the guy who wrote the 4-Hour Work Week? Did you know that he's a national champion San Shou fighter? Did you know that he became the national champion by learning the rule of "Knocking an opponent out of the ring twice in one round automatically makes you the winner"? Did you know that he only had about 4 months of training? Did you know that he was very good at losing weight? Did you know that he only practiced pushing an opponent out of the ring because he knew he couldn't fight? Did you know that he weighed in at 170 for the fight but truly weighed approximately 190? Did you know that he won by pushing his opponent's out of the ring? YEAH THAT'S SPORTS ADAPTING.

MAKE THE RULES GIVE AN ADVANTAGE TO TRUE TECHNIQUE AND THE TRUE SPORTS FIGHTERS WILL ADAPT AND USE TECHNIQUE.

[cerebus]

I agree with the first statement, but not the second. If you are adapting and limiting, then you are not practicing your full repertoire of techniques in a combat setting.

I think the main point that was being made was that if someone can't use their simplest, most basic techniques against basic targets in the controlled and relatively safe environment of a sport match, how the heck do they figure they'll be better able to use more difficult techniques against more difficult targets in the much more dangerous situation of an all-out streetfight? I have to agree with Oso and Jake on this.