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Thread: Leitai Rules for Mantis Competition

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by cerebus View Post
    I think the main point that was being made was that if someone can't use their simplest, most basic techniques against basic targets in the controlled and relatively safe environment of a sport match, how the heck do they figure they'll be better able to use more difficult techniques against more difficult targets in the much more dangerous situation of an all-out streetfight? I have to agree with Oso and Jake on this.
    My point is that if you practice that way, why study a complex art like a kung fu style? Train in a simple art and just slug away at each other.
    I learned in martial arts and civil defense training a very simple principle: you fight how you train. If your concepts are developed and your experience happens in a sports ring, you have no guarantee that you can defend yourself against an attacker that embraces no rules and has no respect for your life.
    I work with a section of society that has a high population of ex-cons. Trust me, a broken nose or a few lost teeth would not stop these peeps from bashing your brains in. Those are the people I want to be able to defend myself against if the need arises. Those are the type of people I train to fight viciously against.

    Regards,
    Richard
    Last edited by mooyingmantis; 02-12-2010 at 01:14 PM.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by mooyingmantis View Post
    My point is that if you practice that way, why study a complex art like a kung fu style? Train in a simple art and just slug away at each other.
    I learned in martial arts and civil defense training a very simple principle: you fight how you train. If your concepts are developed and your experience happens in a sports ring, you have no guarantee that you can defend yourself against an attacker that embraces no rules and has no respect for your life.
    I work with a section of society that has a high population of ex-cons. Trust me, a broken nose or a few lost teeth would not stop these peeps from bashing your brains in. Those are the people I want to be able to defend myself against if the need arises. Those are the type of people I train to fight viciously against.

    Regards,
    Richard
    But just because one trains in a complex art doesn't mean they can jump right into being able to use complex techniques. There's a progression that needs to be followed for human learning. Many try to leap straight into the complex without ever having first mastered the simple because they feel that mastering the simple is somehow "low level". I've seen people who concentrated ONLY on simple techniques, taking them to an insanely high level of skill, and these people are generally FAR better able to use their arts in combat than those who are too hung up on developing the complex. Of course once that's been achieved, then the complex is certainly the next thing to be mastered.

    And I too have dealt with the dangerous criminal element, having been a cop for a number of years and then a corrections officer (a.k.a. "prison guard") afterwards. I agree completely that it may take much more than a broken nose or a few lost teeth to stop them. But if someone has not yet developed the ability to even break an opponent's nose in a full-contact situation, then how can they expect to be able to strike them in the throat or other difficult target areas?
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  3. #33
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    If anyone is interested in the Leitai described, please PM me.

    Regards,
    Richard

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by mooyingmantis View Post
    My point is that if you practice that way, why study a complex art like a kung fu style?
    And the point of this thread is to develop a way to safely spar that encourages the use of Mantis core techniques. But it has to be more than "sparring".

    Just because something is difficult to do doesn't necessarily mean it's not effective. It's just hard to learn initially. If we don't encourage the use of the difficult techniques, then they will gradually fade away... and that's not a good thing. Seriously, why do mantis if you believe it has no value? Just stop doing it and stop saying you do it.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    Seriously, why do mantis if you believe it has no value? Just stop doing it and stop saying you do it.
    Whoever said that?
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  6. #36
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    but, seriously, given that i don't know a tremendous amount of mantis, what I know of as mantis core techniques don't vary so much from anything else.
    "George never did wake up. And, even all that talking didn't make death any easier...at least not for us. Maybe, in the end, all you can really hope for is that your last thought is a nice one...even if it's just about the taste of a nice cold beer."

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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    And the point of this thread is to develop a way to safely spar that encourages the use of Mantis core techniques. But it has to be more than "sparring".

    Just because something is difficult to do doesn't necessarily mean it's not effective. It's just hard to learn initially. If we don't encourage the use of the difficult techniques, then they will gradually fade away... and that's not a good thing. Seriously, why do mantis if you believe it has no value? Just stop doing it and stop saying you do it.
    MightyB,
    Agreed!

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by mooyingmantis View Post
    MightyB,
    Agreed!

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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    And the point of this thread is to develop a way to safely spar that encourages the use of Mantis core techniques. But it has to be more than "sparring".

    Just because something is difficult to do doesn't necessarily mean it's not effective. It's just hard to learn initially. If we don't encourage the use of the difficult techniques, then they will gradually fade away... and that's not a good thing.
    Cerebus,
    What is there to disagree with in this? MightyB understood perfectly the reason I was interested in doing Leitai with other Mantis practitioners. I have no desire to sponsor a tournament where peeps can just do the same old, same old basic techniques. There are enough of those around. If that is what peeps are in to that is fine. It is just not my interest.

    Richard

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by mooyingmantis View Post
    Cerebus,
    What is there to disagree with in this? MightyB understood perfectly the reason I was interested in doing Leitai with other Mantis practitioners. I have no desire to sponsor a tournament where peeps can just do the same old, same old basic techniques. There are enough of those around. If that is what peeps are in to that is fine. It is just not my interest.

    Richard
    Hi Richard. It's not that last thing which you quoted that I was wondering about, but the one you were responding to before that. This one:

    "Seriously, why do mantis if you believe it has no value? Just stop doing it and stop saying you do it."
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  11. #41
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    Cerebus,
    Yeah, I dropped that part the second time because I wasn't sure what he was talking about there or who he was talking too.

    Richard

  12. #42
    Ah, okay. Other than that, yeah, I think such a sparring get-together would be awesome and if I were anywhere nearby I'd love to join in. Sadly, I'm in California and have neither the time nor the financial resources to travel.
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  13. #43
    Your idea is a good one, but I think it may be difficult to accomplish.

    Once things get moving fighting degenerates to how ever your subconscious is programmed. If you trained well enough then you will look like a mantis practitioner and if not then you will look like something else. In theory rules would force a fighter to consciously fight in a certain manner, but I don't know how you could make such rules without imposing other limitations.

    This is difficult enough with people you know, let alone people from other walks of life. Ego would probably be your biggest opponent to such a competition.

    But perhaps there are things you could do to build a tournament that focused on improvement within the style. Suppose you setup matches that were broken into 3 rounds. The first round must be fought at slow speed, the second at medium, and the third at full. If someone can't fight using their style at a slower speed when they can supplement with conscious actions then they surely can't at a faster speed where it is mostly subconscious actions.

  14. #44

    What I was referring to

    Quote Originally Posted by cerebus View Post
    Hi Richard. It's not that last thing which you quoted that I was wondering about, but the one you were responding to before that. This one:

    "Seriously, why do mantis if you believe it has no value? Just stop doing it and stop saying you do it."
    Now keep in mind that I like both Jake and Matt and often agree with them. But, in this instance, I feel that we'd need a specific rule set to encourage Mantis techniques otherwise you'd have a regular MMA event.

    Three Harmonies: What would help CMA would be them just training to fight. Standard rules one see's in MMA is fine. The problem with CMA is they are always trying to get an edge or an angle on some market, and it turns silly.
    Go fight in San Shou / MMA / Kickboxing / Grappling / ****...even point sparring. Rules are no big deal. For the most part all organizations have similar rule sets. Minor differences in knees, elbows and certain submissions, but other than that nothing makes a difference. Simple fact is if little Sammy or Suzy is so afraid of a certain move's acceptance in a full contact fight, then they are not ready to fight period.

    There is no reason CMA should be "different." Just put on gloves and fight.
    Simple enough, yet look at how few actually train it that way.


    again: So that basically leaves us with your basic strikes, kicks, locks, and throws. Certain techniques can certainly maim, but many "rules" are set forth by athletic committee's that differ state to state.

    It seems to me those who are the most reluctant to engage in battle, are often the first and loudest to contest "rules." Fear is a funny thing, and it is funnier in how it can control and manipulate us even subconsciously.


    and even Oso: keep in mind that most sport fighting venues don't have many rules against the type of attack but against specific targets.

    if you can't adapt what you know to any sport venue then how the hell do you expect to adapt it to the street where you have no ****ing clue what is coming at you?

  15. #45
    Anyway-

    I probably misread their responses - but, my feeling on rules is that regular sport fighters engage rulesets as part of their technique. It is simpler to just punch, kick, and shoot for double and single legs, or just form tackle. That's why you don't see huge variation of technique in MMA. But- it doesn't mean complex techniques don't work... anyone who's seen Karo do a Judo Uchi-Mata in the UFC can spot that it's definitely a step more difficult to perform than a single leg, and it's a bit more effective in certain situations. If he went the pure MMA route, and had never done Judo only competitions which required him to do Judo techniques in his past, I guarantee you wouldn't see him able to do the uchi-mata.

    My hypothesis is that the diu sau, choi sum sau, and certain fan che (tai sa nan ding) are all valid techniques that would work in MMA if we practiced them all-out. I also think that tu sau (intercepting) hand as a transition move would work... but, we'd have to have a venue that allows hard contact that encourages those moves in order to get the bugs out and make them effective.

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