Leitai Rules for Mantis Competition

[ginosifu]

A skilled mantis boxer should be able to handle straights, hooks, round kicks, single/double legs etc. If an mma guy can't walk in to a match because he is too dangerous for our techniques, then what's the point? if you can't grab his gi because its too tight, knock him out! I see where it can go and I am for it, but we should sharpen our moves so they work on anyone, as opposed to dulling them so we can finally perform our moves.

Yes anyone that prepares properly should able to walk into any given match and stop jabs, hooks, and double take downs.. etc etc. However, MMA Arena's are geared for Wrestlers and the like. Take away their cage and give a bit more room for movement and Stand up fighters will do better. If you change the rules and make them so stand up styles would score better and you will see the wrestlers will disappear. What I mean is give clear rules that give more points to stand up techniques and no points or penalize for wrestling techniques. What you will see is the MMA gang will not participate in these events. Just like now.... TCMA styles do NOT participate in MMA events.

I was there when they had the "Mantis Meeting" in fact they held it at my school during the Great Lakes Kung Fun Tournament. What they proposed started off sounding promising. Making a ruleset that would award fighters that used "Mantis" style techniques. One thing we talked about is Grappling and how they would implement them. One thing I think they got stuck on was... which grappling techniques were suited for tournament play. How much was too much...

But overall I think that if you have a tournament and have a ruleset that encourages TCMA styles you will see more of us come out and less of the "Grapplers", not that I don't mind grappling. I like Shuai Chiao and I like to wrestle I think that we need to maybe have different events for Stand Up style and Grappling.

ginosifu

[ironfenix]

i said something wrong in a previous post... I wanted to say, we should sharpen our blade so it handles anything, as opposed to dulling THEIR blade so we can use our's better.

[ginosifu]

i said something wrong in a previous post... I wanted to say, we should sharpen our blade so it handles anything, as opposed to dulling THEIR blade so we can use our's better.

I agree with you 100%. However again the problem is that you can practice your mantis style every day 8 hours a day + strength / Lin Gung training (Sharpening Your Blade) and still when you get into the ring with MMA rule set, it will take away all of your Mantis techniques and you will be laying on the ground with somebody on the top and someone on the bottom.

You can sharpen your blade by learning MMA style fighting (wrestling / BBJ). However to me.... I don't practice MMA per say, I practicethe Shaolin Arts which include Northern Shaolin, Southern Hung Gar, Shuai Chiao etc etc. I think that we as TCMA should learn Shuai Chiao or other Throwing + Ground Fighting styles to round out our selves.

ginosifu

[Oso]

gino, what 'techniques' do you think the 'mma ruleset' is taking away from a mantis player?

and I think the main sticking point to the whole mantis meeting was a distinct lack of cohesiveness. oh, and the ridiculous idea of an 8' x 8' ring...

[MightyB]

I agree with you 100%. However again the problem is that you can practice your mantis style every day 8 hours a day + strength / Lin Gung training (Sharpening Your Blade) and still when you get into the ring with MMA rule set, it will take away all of your Mantis techniques and you will be laying on the ground with somebody on the top and someone on the bottom.

You can sharpen your blade by learning MMA style fighting (wrestling / BBJ). However to me.... I don't practice MMA per say, I practicethe Shaolin Arts which include Northern Shaolin, Southern Hung Gar, Shuai Chiao etc etc. I think that we as TCMA should learn Shuai Chiao or other Throwing + Ground Fighting styles to round out our selves.

ginosifu

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[MightyB]

gino, what 'techniques' do you think the 'mma ruleset' is taking away from a mantis player?

It comes down to difficulty vs high percentage. If you do a standard MMA ruleset, you will forgo difficulty in lieu of high percentage moves. So you get single and double leg takedowns, ground and pounds, side control, guard etc. All high percentage stuff... but, if you create a venue where a person is rewarded for honing the difficult-- in our case, ou lou choi, fan che, tu sau and du sau etc - then people will work on mastering those moves. Once they're mastered in a "mantis" environment, they'll be easier to transition to a standard MMA ruleset because instead of being difficult, they'll be high percentage because they've been practiced in a pressured environment.

Think of it this way. MMA camp guy vs Jiu Jitsu black belt turned MMA. The "MMA" guy does the same high percentage as seen everywhere high percentage moves. The BJJ black belt does the same... but he adds his personal inventory of HIS high percentage BJJ moves - that's where you see in MMA the awesome sweeps and submissions that only a BJJ black belt can do.

[ginosifu]

gino, what 'techniques' do you think the 'mma ruleset' is taking away from a mantis player?

and I think the main sticking point to the whole mantis meeting was a distinct lack of cohesiveness. oh, and the ridiculous idea of an 8' x 8' ring...

The cage itself offers MMA fighters places to corner their opponents. I think the ring size is a bit small also. The ground is too soft.... soft enough that fighters feel comfortable dropping down at any given moment. What if they fought on concrete? Would they feel comfortable doing a lot of ground work?

I think mightyb has point about forcing ourselves to work techniques like "Hook / Grapple / Pluck" more realistically.

High percentage techniques like take downs / quick jabs / round kicks to thigh etc etc are easy to learn and can be applied relatively easy as well. My opinion is that these High percentage techs belong in the category of basic or beginner techniques. However, basic techniques can beat sophisticated / advanced techniques if we have not perfected them under "Pressure".

If you take away some of the Grapplers advantage by fighting on.... lets say a gymnasium / basketball floor, I think this would increase stand up fighting, but still not totally rule out some one shooting a double leg.

ginosifu

[Oso]

hogwash.

what logic says that if you only get good at your skillset within a limited environment you will automatically be able to apply it in an open environment.

if you aren't already training in your schools to be competant with your skillset against anybody, anywhere then wtf are you wasting your time for?

as far as 'ou lou tsai' : what is an arm drag but intercepting, grasping and plucking?

the professional mma rules are as open a format as you can get. if you can't play your game within those rules then there is a problem with your game, not the rules.

I was in that room too and the discussion was largely taking place among people with limited to no ring experience and probably limited 'life' experience. (Puyot certainly being the exception)

Hell, Gino, you probably have more competition time than everyone in that room combined. Once the discussion turned to allowing groin kicks and eye gouging in an 8'x8' area I gave up on anything sensible coming out of it.

ufc/mma does not favor anything but good sensible training and a ruleset that hopefully allows the fighters to keep doing it for a while.

[ginosifu]

Not to argue with you Oso but the ruleset or venue will change everything.

Some examples of how rules can change the fight:

I have done Lei Tai on a platform. If any fighter of any style (MMA or otherwise) does NOT prepare or understand about pushing off platform and the rule of losing the round if you do, will lose even if they are a super UFC Champion! I have seen great fighters lose this way, not because they can't fight, but they are not good at the ruleset.

Another example if you only prepare for UFC style and you fight a veteran knife fighter on the street, I don't care who you are.... you will be a sprinkler system. You take him down with your awesome double leg, but he's gonna stab the sheet out you.

preparation for the ruleset or venue is key. If you are prepared for whatever ruleset is in place, then you should be fine.

Most average TCMA do not prepare for ground and pound.... it just does not happen. I do a lot of Shuai Chiao and am ready for UFC style fights if need be. However, fighting on the ground may not always the correct choice in a self defense situation. I believe we need to teach both stand up and ground fighting so we are prepared for all situations

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

Having fought on a platform, in a ring, in a cage, in a closet, in a night club, on the street, in snow, on ice, in a stairwell, on the beach and in mud and water I can say this:
It's all the same ****.
The conditions are equal for all and unless one is unaware of the ruleset ( if there are any) the results will, typically, be the same - the better, more prepared fighter wins.

[MightyB]

Mantis should have it's own ruleset for full contact fighting that encourages mantis technique.

MMA is there for you if that's what you want, but to develop better mantis, we need to emphasize mantis in a full contact pressured setting... otherwise go to an MMA school.

Judo, Jiu Jitsu, Sambo, Thai Boxing, Boxing, Wrestling, Shuai Jiao all have their own rule sets that emphasize their techniques. Nobody gives it a second thought. Anybody who develops in those systems carries those system's traits with them to MMA. If you want to argue against mantis doing the same, then in the words of the immortal Hank Williams the Third, "then go, F--- you" (referring to Honky Tonk music as compared to today's pop country).

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have never been a fan of "****genizing" any MA.
Mantis VS Mantis just gets you good at fighting VS Mantis.
That said, I don't have any issues with a ruleset that emphasis "mantis techniques".

[ginosifu]

Mantis should have it's own ruleset for full contact fighting that encourages mantis technique.

MMA is there for you if that's what you want, but to develop better mantis, we need to emphasize mantis in a full contact pressured setting... otherwise go to an MMA school.

Agreed.

I do not practice mantis but can we say the same for Hung Gar? or Monkey style? or Bak Sil Lum? Should we start to kinda divide ourselves to focus on our own technique? Should TCMA practitioners stick within their own style?

hmmm made me think alittle

ginosifu

[Oso]

Mantis should have it's own ruleset for full contact fighting that encourages mantis technique.

MMA is there for you if that's what you want, but to develop better mantis, we need to emphasize mantis in a full contact pressured setting... otherwise go to an MMA school.

Judo, Jiu Jitsu, Sambo, Thai Boxing, Boxing, Wrestling, Shuai Jiao all have their own rule sets that emphasize their techniques. Nobody gives it a second thought. Anybody who develops in those systems carries those system's traits with them to MMA. If you want to argue against mantis doing the same, then in the words of the immortal Hank Williams the Third, "then go, F--- you" (referring to Honky Tonk music as compared to today's pop country).

ok, that in itself is fine. but you said that then you would be better prepared to enter a mma venue.

specifically:

Once they're mastered in a "mantis" environment, they'll be easier to transition to a standard MMA ruleset because instead of being difficult, they'll be high percentage because they've been practiced in a pressured environment.

which is really what my 'hogwash' statement was about, sorry to be unclear.

in no way will doing 'mantis' against just other 'mantis' prepare you to fight against another 'style' of fighting.

if you intend to compete with whatever skillset you have then you should already be pressure testing your skills in practice. competition is a test of your practice. competing in a limited venue does not test your practical application of your skills.

i mean, if the goal of learning to fight isn't to be able to beat anybody's ass then what is it?

[MightyB]

I have never been a fan of "****genizing" any MA.
Mantis VS Mantis just gets you good at fighting VS Mantis.
That said, I don't have any issues with a ruleset that emphasis "mantis techniques".

Same can be said for Judo, Boxing, you name it, but nobody says anything against the same people bringing dirty boxing to MMA or Karo P's Judo... (talking to wall)