Leitai Rules for Mantis Competition

[ginosifu]

I have never been a fan of "****genizing" any MA.
Mantis VS Mantis just gets you good at fighting VS Mantis.
That said, I don't have any issues with a ruleset that emphasis "mantis techniques".

Encouraging a styles techniques does not necessarily mean we should not train it against other styles.

ginosifu

[MightyB]

is there a danger of overspecializing with a mantis leaning ruleset??? Yes, but I'd rather that happen than the continued pu$$ification of TCMA. At least they'd be prepared to get knocked in the head.

[Oso]

Not to argue with you Oso but the ruleset or venue will change everything.


well, we are debating which is polite arguing

Some examples of how rules can change the fight:

I have done Lei Tai on a platform. If any fighter of any style (MMA or otherwise) does NOT prepare or understand about pushing off platform and the rule of losing the round if you do, will lose even if they are a super UFC Champion! I have seen great fighters lose this way, not because they can't fight, but they are not good at the ruleset.


true, but adapting to a ruleset is not that hard. you seem to be saying that a TCMA player can't adapt to a cage?


Another example if you only prepare for UFC style and you fight a veteran knife fighter on the street, I don't care who you are.... you will be a sprinkler system. You take him down with your awesome double leg, but he's gonna stab the sheet out you.


that's not really an apples to apples comparison. anyone not trained to deal with a knife is going to be a pretty red sprinkler

this discussion is about the application of mantis in a sport environment, is it not?


preparation for the ruleset or venue is key. If you are prepared for whatever ruleset is in place, then you should be fine.


I agree totally. Which is why I don't understand where you are coming from. All you have to do is train to be cage aware and you're fine. You keep wanting to toss in 'street' situations as points of debate.


Most average TCMA do not prepare for ground and pound.... it just does not happen. I do a lot of Shuai Chiao and am ready for UFC style fights if need be. However, fighting on the ground may not always the correct choice in a self defense situation. I believe we need to teach both stand up and ground fighting so we are prepared for all situations

ginosifu

i agree with the last paragraph as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Encouraging a styles techniques does not necessarily mean we should not train it against other styles.

ginosifu

Absolutely, you don't want to end up like the wing chun people do you?
LOL !
I have always advocated a solid core of full contact training within ones core system BEFORE expanding out to train/fight full contact VS other systems.
The inter-system sparring build the core and the "cross-system" sparing makes it adaptable VS other systems, gives it those finishing touches.

[MightyB]

ok, that in itself is fine. but you said that then you would be better prepared to enter a mma venue.

specifically:



which is really what my 'hogwash' statement was about, sorry to be unclear.

in no way will doing 'mantis' against just other 'mantis' prepare you to fight against another 'style' of fighting.

if you intend to compete with whatever skillset you have then you should already be pressure testing your skills in practice. competition is a test of your practice. competing in a limited venue does not test your practical application of your skills.

i mean, if the goal of learning to fight isn't to be able to beat anybody's ass then what is it?

At this point - even though I've had forever and a day in good Mantis training - I'd use Judo and Jiu Jitsu in a MMA fight... Why??? Even though I only do pure Judo, and Jiu Jitsu competition (gi and current ruleset) The hard core "shiai" competition even within those limited rulesets has better prepared me for an all out fight. I'm not saying that those styles are better - in no way shape or form - but the competition has prepared me better to use those styles.

Get my drift???

[Oso]

is there a danger of overspecializing with a mantis leaning ruleset??? Yes, but I'd rather that happen than the continued pu$$ification of TCMA. At least they'd be prepared to get knocked in the head.

but, you seem to be saying that it's going to take a mantis vs. mantis venue to do that when that sort of testing should already be happening in your daily practice.

it seems an unnecessary step and therefore a waste of time.

practice intelligently (including hard contact sparring) and then step into a nuetral venue to test it.

[MightyB]

A
I have always advocated a solid core of full contact training within ones core system BEFORE expanding out to train/fight full contact VS other systems.
The inter-system sparring build the core and the "cross-system" sparing makes it adaptable VS other systems, gives it those finishing touches.

It sounded like you've been against that in the previous posts. This is all Mooying had proposed with the start of the thread. I'll paraphrase: Should there be a venue within mantis that encourages full contact with an emphasis on core mantis techniques? If yes, then what are those techniques and what would the rules look like that would encourage those techniques?

[ginosifu]

true, but adapting to a ruleset is not that hard. you seem to be saying that a TCMA player can't adapt to a cage?

Anyone can adapt to cage fighting. However, because of the ruleset, you will limit the amount Mantis or Shaolin or Hung Gar you can apply effectively. Everything ends up on the ground no matter what style or how good you are in that style. I think that the ruleset favors wrestlers and that's fine if you practice only wrestling. I would rather compete somewhere with a ruleset that lets me do kung fu!

ginosifu

[MightyB]

but, you seem to be saying that it's going to take a mantis vs. mantis venue to do that when that sort of testing should already be happening in your daily practice.

it seems an unnecessary step and therefore a waste of time.

practice intelligently (including hard contact sparring) and then step into a nuetral venue to test it.

If I only shiai in my own club I don't get better. When I travel to other clubs, I can say - "hey, who's up for some Randori or Shiai?". Currently there's no safe way to do that within Mantis because there's too much ego and face.

A common ruleset would help to change that.

[Oso]

Anyone can adapt to cage fighting. However, because of the ruleset, you will limit the amount Mantis or Shaolin or Hung Gar you can apply effectively. Everything ends up on the ground no matter what style or how good you are in that style. I think that the ruleset favors wrestlers and that's fine if you practice only wrestling. I would rather compete somewhere with a ruleset that lets me do kung fu!

ginosifu

I don't think that's a very valid statement. There have been plenty of fights that stayed standing. It all depends on the fighters in the ring. The ruleset doesn't favor anything in particular. You can win by whatever means you are most capable of. I don't see how that limits anyone's technique. The only rules against anything are against things that can permanantly maim you (eyes, groin).

I will say I've never understood the small joint restriction. Broken fingers or toes won't permanently maim you or change your life like losing a nut or an eye will.

[MightyB]

I don't think that's a very valid statement. There have been plenty of fights that stayed standing. It all depends on the fighters in the ring. The ruleset doesn't favor anything in particular. You can win by whatever means you are most capable of. I don't see how that limits anyone's technique. The only rules against anything are against things that can permanantly maim you (eyes, groin).

I will say I've never understood the small joint restriction. Broken fingers or toes won't permanently maim you or change your life like losing a nut or an eye will.

I'm not an advocate of small joint, groin, or eye attacks... maybe 'cuz to me MA is a recreation, past time, stress reliever. I wasn't at the meeting, but that's just plain irresponsible to think that those techs should even be considered when there's plenty of solid and "safe" differentiators built into mantis like ou lou choi, du sau, etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It sounded like you've been against that in the previous posts. This is all Mooying had proposed with the start of the thread. I'll paraphrase: Should there be a venue within mantis that encourages full contact with an emphasis on core mantis techniques? If yes, then what are those techniques and what would the rules look like that would encourage those techniques?

I have always been cautious of those that do ONLY their style VS their style.
I think that as a base it is needed, essential really.
Boxers box other boxers and judoka randori with other judoka before they branch out if the aim of their training is to develop their MA to the fullest.
I have always advocated a firm base in one system or two and cross-testing in as many other systems as one can.
The best way to learn to fight a MT guy is to fight a MT guy and even more so in regards to MMA.
But before one can do that, one must have a solid core of full contact sparring in their base system.

[Oso]

If I only shiai in my own club I don't get better. When I travel to other clubs, I can say - "hey, who's up for some Randori or Shiai?". Currently there's no safe way to do that within Mantis because there's too much ego and face.

A common ruleset would help to change that.

well, the ego and face thing wouldn't be an issue if they were secure in their abilities.

TCMA has become pu$$ified, as you put it, because of the ego and face that prevents them from just stepping in to any ring and going for it.

Whining about someone else's rule set not favoring your chosen skillset pretty much just means you've wasted your time in a practice that is not broadly applicable.

While Judo, MT, Sambo and all those others do have their own competitions practitioners from those styles ( i guess with the exception of SC: Are there any SC players competing in mma? ) have been able to transition to MMA venues without having to change what they are doing. You can tell a judo throw when it happens, you can tell a Thai kick when it happens, you can tell a wrestling takedown or a jujitsu lock or choke...all because those things will work no matter who their opponent is.

If you can't throw a mantis technique of your choice and make it work for you then the problem is either with you or the technique.

(note: 'you' is being use impersonallly)

You won't find an 'mma' player whining about the ruleset at your shiai or your lei tai is all I'm saying.

[mooyingmantis]

Mantis should have it's own ruleset for full contact fighting that encourages mantis technique.

MMA is there for you if that's what you want, but to develop better mantis, we need to emphasize mantis in a full contact pressured setting...

I definitely agree with the above statement. Mantis specific rulesets could produce better mantis skills.

However, in my not so humble opinion, if your mantis doesn't work in any venue, your mantis sucks! Yep, I said it. Though not the mantis style, just how you apply it.

We don't need special rules to compete. We don't need a special ring size to compete. I prefer the 6' x 6' platform we use at my school for fighting, but I have fought in boxing rings, on grass in parks and asphalt in parking lots. The techniques worked the same. Just allow me to use fingerless gloves for grabs, parries, locking and choking techniques and I'm cool.

As a monkey stylist, mantis stylist and jujutsuan I really don't see the big deal here. Yes, a cage does give grapplers a little advantage for the kind of techniques they do, IF YOU HAVE CRAPPY FOOTWORK. I can't believe how poorly most martial artist's footwork looks. This area needs improved in many styles.

Here is my prescription for "fixing/adjusting" mantis for fighting:

1. Improve you footwork.
Unfortunately, most mantis forms and line drills have taught us to move back and forth in a straight line Yes, there is the occassional dodge, but more footwork than just a dodge is required to fight in various venues.
Here is one example: can you gou lou cai and gua while moving in a circle or just back and forth?
2. Learn to feign.
Another area most martial artists need to improve is feigns. Feigns that look realistic and can lead an opponent into doing what you want him to do. Most martial artists I have seen are bringing checkers to a chess game. Strategy seems to elude them.
3. Use combinations ALWAYS.
Nothing upsets me more than when students don't use combinations. You want to play tag and be a "one hit wonder"? Write a song and sing on MTV. Fighting lives and breathes through combinations. Whether punching, kicking or grappling, combinations are paramount to success.
4. Get over your low self-esteem and quit whining!
Mantis rocks! I am not saying it is the best art (monkey is ), but it is a great, versatile art that should be able to go toe to toe with any other art.
5. Study the other man's game.
As I mentioned, I have trained in mantis and traditional jujutsu. I try to learn as much about my opponent BEFORE the fight, then adjust my game accordingly. I can grapple, but if my opponent is a grappler I will adjust my game to avoid grappling and shut his game down. It really isn't that hard when you are familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the other man's game.

I don't claim to be the ultimate fighting machine, but I have been doing this for over 40 years, have fought bare-fisted matches and STILL have a pretty face.
If you want to improve your school's fighting, I will be glad to show you how. I teach free seminars. I would be glad to do one for your school. Let me sleep on the kwoon floor and if you are in a reasonable driving range, I'm there. I'm willing to put my skills where my mouth is. Without being a **** and issuing challenges. What do you have to lose?

[Oso]

I'm not an advocate of small joint, groin, or eye attacks... maybe 'cuz to me MA is a recreation, past time, stress reliever. I wasn't at the meeting, but that's just plain irresponsible to think that those techs should even be considered when there's plenty of solid and "safe" differentiators built into mantis like ou lou choi, du sau, etc.

agreed. i was dumbfounded to sit there listening to what was being said.