Greetings from a Sifu of Seven Star Mantis

[LawClansman]

Greetings to one and all. I am Sifu Carl Albright. I have trained in Seven Star for 40 years. I will do my best to give you informed, accurate and complete answers to your questions. Please be patient. I am not on line all of the time but will make my best effort to keep up the pace. My web site is up now and being added to every week. http://members.xoom.com/lawclansman
Hopefully the site will take care of some of the basic questions. Ask away.


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CAA

Sifu Albright:
Let me be the first to say that i found your website thanks through (Relster) to be one of the best on the Seven Star Praying Mantis System.

There are those who say that there are about 30 to 40 set's to the system,but your saying that there 110 set's in the Seven Star Praying Mantis System!

Under the Chiu Chi Man Lineage who was the sixth generation inheritor of the Seven Star Praying Mantis System under Law Gong Yuk.

Who then passed the System down to his nephew Chiu Leun.Who you have stated you trained under but most importantly you have the proof to back up what you say.

Something that a lot of Seven Star Praying Mantis Sifu's don't really do.

So with that being said I ask you Sifu Albright what do you have to say about all this?

The reason I ask this question is because I know for a fact that there are a lot of Seven Star Praying Mantis Teachers & student's who will say that they Know the whole Seven Star Praying Mantis System.


LESTAT 33

[This message has been edited by LESTAT33 (edited 12-19-1999).]

[LawClansman]

LESTAT33:
First let me say thanks for checking the web site and be assured that it is far from finished. I am presently adding to the theory and technique section mostly. This is because the history has been repeated sooo many times before that I am concentrating on the actual style itself. I think there is far too little on this subject. Later I will finish the history section.
Next to address your question of the forms. It is true that most mantis sifu have not learned the complete system. This is not such a bad thing because traditionally only the keepers of the style would be taught everything. Also there were people that thought there where too many forms even without learning the complete system so they picked out enough for them. Sifu Su Yu Chang has stated this about the seven star that he knows.
The book Shandong Mantis lists 57 hand sets for the seven star style and GIVES THE COMPLETE forms via the kuen po "form speak". This is the way the forms are kept (via the kuen po). I have the kuen po for 85 of the forms in my lineage. My sifu Chiu Leun has the rest.
I met Wong Hon Fun when he was alive and he in fact knew more forms than is taught in his present day line. People use to argue with me about a certian form LOK YING JEUNG (descending eagle palm). They would say that the Wong Hon Fun line has no such set. However in the Wong Hon Fun 40th yearbook THERE IT IS.
I have spent 12 years in China. Been to the ShanDong all mantis tournement. Been to the Taiwan mantis conference. Trained with many 7th generaton mantis masters (seven star and others) Researched mantis my whole life. Believe me I know what I am talking about. The fact of the matter is that I know the Wong Hon Fun side AND the Chiu Chi Man side. I am taking this opportunity to make public (with permission from my sifu) the Chiu Chi Man side so that a proper A B comparison can be made.

Let me also state that BOTH masters were great. However, Law Gwong Yuk gave the school to Chiu Chi Man. When Wong Hon Fun left the school, Chiu Chi Man was still learning from Law Gwong Yuk.
Now, is it necessary to learn 80 forms? ABSOLUTELY NOT. So why then are there so many forms? Well, unfortunately, it is the Chinese way. Let me explain. The COMPLETE seven star style is SPREAD OUT throughout the forms. Many of the forms are repetetive. But each contains something unique. THAT'S THE NEW MATERIAL. If you take out all of the repeated movements, you would have a lot less forms. But it's too late. The system has already been spread out.

That is why there are so many forms. To keep the COMPLETE style for the few that would learn them. I will not condense the style even though I know the differences in the forms. I teach in the traditional manner. Remember it's not what you NEED. When fighting, you only use a certian amount of techniques. But why limit yourself to the techniques that every one has? learn more so that you can have a better choice. A more informed choice. Do you think ANY sifu wil easily part with his most cherished material? I know it's a lot. Buy hey, you've got your whole life ahead of you. What else do you have to do? Even after over 40 years of training in seven star I am still learning. And for those that say ther is no time to practice or it's too much to remember ther is a saying. Let those that say it can not be done mak way for those that are doing it.


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CAA

Hi,

I have two questions for you. One is in 7 star mantis when you do a right groin kick and jump back, flip the palms 3 times, right left and right, what is the application for flipping the palm 3 times?

Also how many drunken hand forms are there? Do the 2 man forms of them exist?

Woo woo!!!!!

MantiStyle! Good to see you back. I missed you man!!!

Still trying to find out what the deal is on those flipping palms, huh?

Good luck in your search!

[LawClansman]

Mantis Style:
The Sequence you refer to is the Bai Moon Toy (closing gate kick) also called "main combination". At the end of the sequence there is a palming action. The main palming action is called TIU JEUNG (flip palm) There are other palming actions that occur but right now I believe you are refering to the tiu jeung.

The three palms have a dual purpose. They can be BOTH blocks and attacks. I hope I can explain it in print so that you can picture it. 1. The opponent execute a straight punch (keeping it simple)
2. The first tiu is used to block or parry or deflect the attacking arm.
3. The second and third tiu can be used as strikes.

The second tiu could also be used to block a second attack.

The 3 tiu also are a trap / catch and break sequence.

Three tiu can be used to iniciate the attack after the kick. (called attacking while on defence)

Three tius can be used as a "flowering" technique. This distracts the opponent with hand movement while your real intention is a kick. The flowers draw the opponents hands upward while leaving the lower regions unguarded.

All of the applications I have described are more apparent in the Chiu Chi Man sets.
There are always more than one application for ANY technique. And as I said, there are variations of the tiu jeung in other forms.

In regards to the drunken sets. There are only 3 true drunken hand forms. However, there are numerous other forms that contain sections with drunken technique. Techniques that are not in the drunken sets. The drunken sets are Joy Lo Han Kuen (drunken bodhisaatva (excuse the spelling) and the Joy Bo Tong Long (drunken stepping mantis)
The third is Joy Baat Sin Kuen (drunken 8 immortals). (Hey thats not on the list at my site!!! you have eeked another one out of me lol)

There is a two person form but only one person is playing the drunken mantis. The other is straight mantis.

Feel free to ask more about the three palms if I didn't quite cover it for you.


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CAA

[wisdom mind]

Does your school teach the drunken mantis?
Is there an "average" time that one must practice to get to that form?

Thank you, Happy Holidays

[LawClansman]

wisdom mind
Unlike what you may have seen before, the mantis drunken sets are not for appearance alone. They contain a wide range of practical applications. And they are not easily gotten. Although I can't give you an average time I can give you the requirments. After 15 forms you can learn the drunken Lo Han and drunken dahn dao OR learn other things that are available at that time. After 40 forms the drunken step mantis, drunken staff, drunken gim, drunken 9 section whip, drunken magic staff (3 ft staff), drunke gan (ribbed sword)are available and after 70 forms the drunken eight immortals is available. The drunken two man set is available after you learn the drunken step mantis.

There is no great advantage to learning the drunken sets only. The drunken sets are based on the style and your knowledge of the system plays an important role in learning and applying the drunken forms. Furthermore, the drunken forms are rather short in comparision to some of the other sets and drunken sets do not contain the best techniques of the system. The drunken sets are there to complete the entire mantis curriculum and in that regard is how you should learn them.

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CAA

Sifu Albright,

Glad you're on board.

The tiu jeung application(s) formed the crux of a discussion that MantiStyle and I had earlier. He challenged me to give a satisfactory application of the movement, and , up until now, I have chosen not to respond.

However, you seem very well-versed in mantis orthodoxy, so I was hoping to get your opinion on one particular application I came up with. The others you described were either similar or along the same lines of others I had come up with but had dismissed as "too simplistic" (not that they are; I just wanted to come with something a little less obvious):

The three palms are executed in an empty stance, if memory serves, which always implies a kicking or intruding foot motion in my mind. The application goes:

1. The opponent leads with a forward hand strike to your upper torso/head area. The first palm leads the strike away and your opponent into your inner range. Depending on positioning, you may or may not execute a kick to groin/legs.

2. The second palm is a strike. Again, depending on positioning, you can attack head, side of ribcage, solar plexus, whatever. At the same time, you either step behind or into the opponent's root.

3. The third palm is a takedown, regardless of positioning.

I'd love to get your opinion on this. It's the best I could come up with not being overly familiar with the 7-Star Mantis system.

Thanks!

-J.

[LawClansman]

jim_lin
The techniques /applications that you described would work fine. However strictly speaking to the technique of the flip palms, when you apply the takedown, you have left the sequence in question and gone ahead to another. Certianly, you can always go into something else but for the sake of the original question in regerds to the flip palms, I'll give you a couple of less obvious applications.

The opponent kicks and it is caught with the first palm. The second palm can strike or block an oncomming blow. It can also be used to stab under the leg at a pressure point behind the knee. The foot is as you stated always prepared to kick when in the riding tiger stance (cat stance) and with the opponents leg in the air you can kick his groin or standing leg. Then the hand holding the leg can be used to throw up the opponents leg to off balance him.

Here is another:

This is against the spinning backfist used by many martial artists. As the opponent spins around the first palm blocks the spinning backfist. The second palms are used to get under the opponents arms in a full nelson or chin na neck lock (part of the 108 locks) The leg can be used to kick the back of the opponents leg to bring him to his knees.

As I said before, there are many applications for any technique. Even if you are not a seven star practitioner per say, you will find that your own personal experiences will go a long way in determining an application in other styles than your own as you have shown in your post.

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CAA

[LawClansman]

Happy New Year to one and all. I wish you much luck and sucess in all of your endeavors.
There is new material on the web site. The first LCMAA free lesson on the net.

http://members.xoom.com.lawclansman/baimoonduichat.htm

Hope you like the first installment. It will take a while to load but I think its worth it.

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CAA

Thanks for the input, Sifu Albright. One of my hobbies is forms analysis, and the perspective of the non-style practitioner is sometimes confusing, as I'm not always sure of what's considered orthodox in a style. Then again, when considering the wide range of what's available in kung-fu, perhaps keeping "orthodoxy" to a minimum might be a good thing.

Again, my thanks!

-J.

[LawClansman]

Greetings again;

My site url is now
http://www.7starmantis.com
Getting a lot of hits and thanks to all who visited me. I have gotten together with my old friend Aaron Banks for a show at Madison Square Garden April 26 2000. There will be a lot of different martial artists of all types of styles. A list of some of them is on my site but more will be added.

On another note, it seems my site has caught the attention (and maybe wrath) of some people. I just found out about it. They are complaining about the number of forms listed on my site. However, none of them are from the Chiu Chi Man lineage. I thought I made it clear that its not the number of forms you know but how well you know the forms you practice. The form list on my site is intended to give info on what I do. Nothing more is implied.

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CAA

Hello...
Im a young Kung fu student in Portugal. Althoug i keep a low profile, i read these posts very frequently...
Its very interesting that Sifu Albright allows himself to come here and us some of his knoledge, congratiolations...and thanks.

In my school we practice what is told us to be traditional Shaollin Chuan style...
we have learn many sets, and that includes two tang lang chuan sets... now my knoledge about the tang lang styles is very limited but what i have learn so far made me be inlove with it...specialy a set that i have been training and developing for more than a year now, and it belongs to Meihua tang lang chuan (Plumm Blossom Praying Mantis). There many 'weird' thecniches in this set, and some of them are somehow close to what i have seen as the drunken .
ok...enought of that, ill go to may questions:
1) its easy to get some historical information about 7 star, 8 steps,6 harmony, but i have eard about other tang lang styles, like Taichi tang lang or even the Meihua tang lang (and others)...so, whats the diference bettween all these styles, in techniques, aplications, filosofy and history.
2)im confused about the meaning of the drunken sets discussed ine here...what does 7 star has to do with the drunken style?
3) isnt tang lang (in its original form) a fist techniq? i have visited Sifu Albright homepage, and i have seen the use of weapons.When that happen in 7 star (who introduced it) and does the same happens on others tang lang styles...

wow...i guess that sure is enought, if i could have a reply to this it would be great.

thanks in advance

Rui Procopio

[LawClansman]

Greetings Rui:
For starters, if you go the
http://www.authentickungfu.com
you will find links to other mantis sites on the net. Check here first for plum blossom and other styles. Also on this site is a link to the MANTIS CAVE. A lot to be found here.
As for the drunken forms, there is debate to when the forms came into the style of 7 star. These forms comprise fighting techniques combined with staggering, tipping, leaning, rolling, pretending to drink wine and other things make the practitioner appear drunk. It is confusing and suprising to the opponent because he can't figure out what you will do next.This as well as weapon forms were taught at the Ching Wu association. Some of the forms in 7 Star were borrowed from the Ching Wu curriculum. Other weapon sets are from the Shaolin repetoire and have been in mantis a long time.

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CAA