MMA hands

[goju]

I have been throwing the "casting punch' for nearly all of my martial arts career. I always considered it a ridge hand variant. In fact, it was the second looping technique that I learned to use.

yes this is pretty much just an exagerrated ridge hand

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=...-casting-punch

we have the same in goju ryu you can use the side of the hand or strike with the forerarm

[HumbleWCGuy]

yes this is pretty much just an exagerrated ridge hand

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=...-casting-punch

we have the same in goju ryu you can use the side of the hand or strike with the forerarm

Yea, it is a nice punch. We throw it a little differently, but whatever.

To what some are suggesting, It boarders on the ridiculous for anyone to say that a looping technique to the clinch represents some kind of refined MMA clinching strategy that shapes the entire upright game for grapplers. Looping technique to the clinch has long been a standard clinching tactic. It is a way, and not the preferred or ultimate way to achieve the clinch. There are many ways that are just as effective if not more so.

[Paul T England]

MMA striking is not at the top level yet. Why do they swing and launch haymakers? bacuase they work....especially on people who drop guard etc.

paul

[Frost]

Some people think if it's not MMA then it's no good. The MMA ground game can be fantastic but regarding the hands why are there so many wild, lucky, sloppy haymakers?
I had a list of links of some of the well known MMA fighters and that's what I see.
I don't have to post them because anyone can see the flaws in many MMA guys handwork. I also get the same opinion from one former pro boxer and one present pro boxer that I know. I'm not taking anything for the heart/stamina, etc., you have to have to fight but I'm not impressed with the hands like some people here who think that MMA people are invincible. My experience it the WC hands are better. But some will never agree and that's their prerogative.

why is the standard in MMA so bad?
why are so many of these wild sloppy punches so lucky?
why did Randy get destroyed by someone throwing wide open punches (liddel)

its beacuse MMA is not K1 or kick boxing, and striking in MMA reflects a few basic facts:
1) fecking small gloves which mean all kinds of strikes slip through that would get blocked with nice big boxing gloves
2)wide casting punches are great to set up take downs (that why the sambo guys punch like this, its not russian boxing it comes from the combat sambo guys)
3) you don't get much time to throw nice combinations and set up power shots, you throw more than 3 punches and you normally get clinched and takedown etc, so all your punches better count, (no nice clean jabs to set up the overhand right please)
4) wide swinging punches generate power from the waist so you don't need to set your feet, you can throw them on the move or when you are in trouble, handy if you are moving away from a takeown or your legs are shot and you can't plant them for power (anyone see manioff get knocked out on strike force by a single wild swinging punch when dominating the stand up and taking the guys base out with leg kicks)
5)most fighters stand slightly squarer with lower stances than in pure striking, this helps deal with the take down and allows for power punches of both hands, but does not make for nice clean punches
6) striking is probably the least important aspect of MMA, the clinch and the ground normally dominate so most guys learn just enough to get by (but look at good strikers coming into MMA, daley, Mainoff Hardy, they have to adapt or they lose, you throw too many punches you get takedown or knocked out, so you throw less punches as a striker but try to make them count)
7) no three knock down rule or 8 seconds standing counts, if you get knocked down and can't defend the fights over, this means very few guys are willing to stand and throw combinations for fear of the one lucky punch taking them out (meianoff was winning the above fight hands down, stayed in the pocket too long thinking it was a thai match and got KO'd by a shot that was wild and lucky, go figure)

MMA is not pure striking nor is it pure wrestling or pure BJJ, its different and changes all the rules in the above pure sports: thats why in MMA BJJ blackbelts lose to purples and good wrestlers get takendown by sloppy shots.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The thicker the gloves the harder the punches. Thin gloves do not make any difference. Gloves reduce cuts on the struck, but they protect the hands of the striker allowing for much harder and riskier punches.


Edit:
I like this thread. I would like to be moved off my position that mma strikers are just not that good. People who have attempted to defend mma striking are reinforcing my beliefs as I interpret what they are saying as:

MMA strikers as a group have 1 dimensional clinching tactics by kickboxing/boxing standards

MMA strikers as a group don't have credible defenses to get into exchanges by kickboxing/boxing standards

MMA strikers as a group often don't have credible chins by kickboxing/boxing standards

MMA strikers lack the footwork and strategies to manage distance by kickboxing/boxing standards

MMA strikers as a group lack the understanding necessary to generate power while punching compactly by kickboxing/boxing standards

[Frost]

The thicker the gloves the harder the punches. Thin gloves do not make any difference. Gloves reduce cuts on the struck, but they protect the hands of the striker allowing for much harder and riskier punches.

did i mention anywhere that gloves do not reduce cuts or do not allow for harder strikes?

My point was the smaller the glove the more holes it leaks through, half the punches you see in MMA land would never get through a basic boxing guard, bigger gloves cover a lot more area in denece.... not to mention you feel the knuckles alot more through 4oz gloves than you do through 10 or 12oz

[HumbleWCGuy]

did i mention anywhere that gloves do not reduce cuts or do not allow for harder strikes?

My point was the smaller the glove the more holes it leaks through, half the punches you see in MMA land would never get through a basic boxing guard, bigger gloves cover a lot more area in denece.... not to mention you feel the knuckles alot more through 4oz gloves than you do through 10 or 12oz

I misread. Still, getting hit flush with a haymaker after haymaker really just speaks to having a lack of a credible defense.

[t_niehoff]

The thicker the gloves the harder the punches. Thin gloves do not make any difference. Gloves reduce cuts on the struck, but they protect the hands of the striker allowing for much harder and riskier punches.

Wrong. I routinely spar with both -- and can tell you that there is a huge difference between 4 0z gloves and 16 oz gloves in terms of power -- and the thin ones allow you to deliver more. This is just common sense: swing a lead pipe, one covered in 4 oz of padding another coverd in 16 oz of padding.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Wrong. I routinely spar with both -- and can tell you that there is a huge difference between 4 0z gloves and 16 oz gloves in terms of power -- and the thin ones allow you to deliver more. This is just common sense: swing a lead pipe, one covered in 4 oz of padding another coverd in 16 oz of padding.

If people don't switch punching styles between glove types. Try training with people who know how to use the boxing glove better. Its like training BJJ with a gi and never grabbing the gi. If you never learn to use the gi, you might wonder about the difference between gi and no gi.

[t_niehoff]

What is clear is tha for the most part we have people talking about MMA who have never trained MMA or trained with good MMA fighters.

MMA is NOT boxing. Some people in MMA use a boxing skill set, but it is APPLIED differently since the conditions of the fight are different (you have to adjust for the possiblity of kicks, takedowns, clinches, etc.). You need to modify how you move, defend, throw, etc. Boxers tend to look at MMA striking through boxer's eyes (that's not how it's done in boxing). But there are many MMA fighters that have either fought pro boxing or been golden gloves. BJ Penn, Nick Diaz, Jens Pulver, and I could go on and on, all have great hands.

And for many in MMA, their stand-up is not their main game. They just want enough skill to get by until they can take the fight to the ground, for instance.

What I find interesting is the people who couldn't last a minute with a decent (competent) MMA fighter pointing out the "technical flaws" in their game. To me, this is like really poor golfers trying to technically critique the games of the pros. Every one of you would be wel;l-served to spend some significant time training with some good fighters instead of theorizing how you really know better.

[t_niehoff]

If people don't switch punching styles between glove types. Try training with people who know how to use the boxing glove better. Its like training BJJ with a gi and never grabbing the gi. If you never learn to use the gi, you might wonder about the difference between gi and no gi.

http://finneyskickboxing.com/

I'll take that up with Jesse and tell him he's cheating us.

[HumbleWCGuy]

What is clear is tha for the most part we have people talking about MMA who have never trained MMA or trained with good MMA fighters.

MMA is NOT boxing. Some people in MMA use a boxing skill set, but it is APPLIED differently since the conditions of the fight are different (you have to adjust for the possiblity of kicks, takedowns, clinches, etc.). You need to modify how you move, defend, throw, etc. Boxers tend to look at MMA striking through boxer's eyes (that's not how it's done in boxing). But there are many MMA fighters that have either fought pro boxing or been golden gloves. BJ Penn, Nick Diaz, Jens Pulver, and I could go on and on, all have great hands.

And for many in MMA, their stand-up is not their main game. They just want enough skill to get by until they can take the fight to the ground, for instance.

What I find interesting is the people who couldn't last a minute with a decent (competent) MMA fighter pointing out the "technical flaws" in their game. To me, this is like really poor golfers trying to technically critique the games of the pros. Every one of you would be wel;l-served to spend some significant time training with some good fighters instead of theorizing how you really know better.

You could think of it as people with great technical expertise pointing out poor technical expertise by superior athletes. Bill Bellichick didn't play football but he might be the greatest coach ever.

Look at it this way. Randy Couture could beat a lot of BJJ black belts. does that make him a BJJ black belt or BJJ technical expert?

[t_niehoff]

You could think of it as people with great technical expertise pointing out poor technical expertise by superior athletes. Bill Bellichick didn't play football but he might be the greatest coach ever.

Look at it this way. Randy Couture could beat a lot of BJJ black belts. does that make him a BJJ black belt or BJJ technical expert?

Who on this forum has "great technical expertise" in boxing? Yet, you want to technically analyze the form of people who would beat you to a pulp!

You can't analyze MMA from a "pure" boxing stand-point since it is not pure boxing, but modified. And, unless you have a lot of experience doing MMA, you can't understand how you need to modifiy it for MMA. This is what you don't appreciate.

Even BJJ for MMA is not sport BJJ.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Who on this forum has "great technical expertise" in boxing? Yet, you want to technically analyze the form of people who would beat you to a pulp!

You can't analyze MMA from a "pure" boxing stand-point since it is not pure boxing, but modified. And, unless you have a lot of experience doing MMA, you can't understand how you need to modifiy it for MMA. This is what you don't appreciate.

Even BJJ for MMA is not sport BJJ.

So if you disagree with the assessment of the technical expertise then please explain to use why off-balance, telegraphed, and looping punches at a high rate are justifiable "adjustments" for mma from standard boxing/kickboxing. Thus far the rationalizations don't seem to hold up to scrutiny. As WCers, kickboxing to standing grappling should be right in our wheel house.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlJvo5R-Wqs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nBoQgeKP-0

If you think he's just "tough man" .......

Heck no. He doesn't fit into that category. But there are many that do. Also, I noticed that he uses blocks as well.