Developing strikes

[k gledhill]

You don't understand -- by body I am not talking about the torso but the whole person, including the arms. You can't isolate the parts. Just like you can't separate mechanicsfrom power from anything else. The WCK punch is the whole body working together to perform a certain task.



You aren't KO'ing anyone with your WCK punches.

I've seen Bayer's videos and he is all arms and ONLY arms. One of the easiest ways to recognize poor WCK is the fast hands stuff -- since fast hands only come from localized muscle. It means you are not using your body. That won't do anything and will fall apartunder pressure.



This is all nonsense. You're not goingto "intercept along an invisible line as you attack." People aren't going to be feeding you weak WCK punches that permit you to do these things.

You cant even understand what Im talking about....

[-木叶-]

Actually both gledhill and terence are correct, gledhill emphasizes on 发劲在膊 (Cyclic punches etc), whereas terence emphasizes on 力从地起 (Strength comes from the body)。

One very good way of developing the strikes is to hit on the wall bag, firm and slow with
each strike, (not the Yip Man movie ones).

[YungChun]

The WCK punch is the whole body working together to perform a certain task.

Correct.

You aren't KO'ing anyone with your WCK punches.

fast hands only come from localized muscle. It means you are not using your body. That won't do anything and will fall apartunder pressure.

Slightly off.

Actually really fast hands (speed) does come from the body.. If you only use localized muscle you will never get as much speed or power as when you are grounded and the body is powering the arms.. (sequential summation of motion) The fastest attacks with arms are powered by the body.. Of course it depends on what kinds of movements...

What you really mean here is that the arms must be synced with the body as a single unit in motion, action. So then no, the ultra high speed CPs we often see are not synced, not connected and will have very little power.

EDIT:

BTW T a good example of why and what folks need to be shown.. Many don't get this point... and need to be shown.....shown...!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So there goes your 'your teacher can't show you....' Students do need to be shown many a thing...

[Wayfaring]

As another viewpoint in developing strikes, I wanted to highlight how boxers, MT boxers, and MMA fighters develop strikes. In this, I won't necessarily focus on the science and specific technique of the strikes, but in the training methods which are utilized to take the specific science and technique and train them to a high level that is effective in striking an opponent who is moving around and trying to strike you back in an alive fashion. If WCK boxers would train strikes with the same developmental model you see boxers, MT boxers, and MMA fighters they might see better results.

One interesting point about the training methodology here - you don't really see a whole lot of MMA fighters, boxers, or MT boxers growing frustrated with their striking skills as learned via this training method and turn to WCK. Yet apparently through other methods of training WCK striking that occurs with people leaving it and taking up MMA. This is worth reflecting on. The skills being learned and the method they are trained in MMA, MT, Boxing have ENOUGH BUILT-IN FEEDBACK that they don't have to wonder if they are increasing in ability, strength, power, agility, effective fighting skills. They actually know because they can measure it for themselves. One of the ways this feedback is obtained is through the consistent live application against skilled opponents.

MMA, MT, Boxing trains the development of fundamentals through pad work. Power is developed through hitting the heavy bag. This is done in conditioning rounds of typically 3 minutes long, with many rounds done in a session. The same with MT pads - combinations are trained in rounds striking the pads. This develops both the power in the strike as well as the stamina and endurance to strike with power for an extended period of time.

Footwork is developed through jumping rope - which develops agility and stamina for quick movement as well as many other drills to train movement. These also are trained in rounds or for a specified duration. This develops the agility and endurance to move with good footwork that will enable a fighter to maintain their structure in fast aggressive situations.

Striking a moving target is trained through focus pads as well as speed bags. Combinations are the starting point with focus pads, and then eventually a freestyle sparring session is reached complete with slipping and ducking movements. This trains the skill of hitting a target in a moving alive environment.

A boxer in training will do something similar to the following training regimen:
1) Running – 1 mile a day
2) Jump rope – 15-45 min a day
3) Bag work – 3 days a week – 10 rounds minimum
4) Pad work – 3 days a week – 1.5 hours minimum
5) Sparring – 6 days a week – 30 min sessions

So when you look at this, the sheer repetition and high training numbers show you how quickly striking skills develop.

In contrast to this, the typical training regimen of a WCK practitioner mostly looks as follows:

1) Running – from the parking lot to the kwoon 3x per week - @600ft.
2) Jump rope – jump what?
3) Bag work – we use the dummy for that, so did the dummy sets 3x @ 7 min.
4) Pad work – we don’t need to “chase hands” with pad work – we do compliant chi sau with air punches. 30 min.
5) Sparring – on Saturdays – attendance optional and low. 1.5 hours.
6) Forums – 3 hrs / week.
So the fact that most WCK practitioner’s hands don’t contain the skill of an average boxer is not difficult to spot why.

The suggestion is for the WCK practitioner, rather than quitting your striking development in WCK and seeking answers somewhere else, why don’t you buy yourself a good mouth guard and cup, some gloves – MMA and Boxing, and some decent shin pads and start mixing it up with boxers, MT boxers ,and MMA fighters? Oh, and get yourself a timer. Set it to 3-5 min. Hit start.

[bennyvt]

here's an idea for those people, get off your arse and do the work. Any one that doesn't do sad work, heavy bag, any cardio, or vt bag should see that they are not doing anything. Minimum hundreds of punches needed. All environments needed. We are not all as lazy as what you discribe. Barry used to say its not the style its who worked the hardest.

[t_niehoff]

Actually really fast hands (speed) does come from the body.. If you only use localized muscle you will never get as much speed or power as when you are grounded and the body is powering the arms.. (sequential summation of motion) The fastest attacks with arms are powered by the body.. Of course it depends on what kinds of movements...

What you really mean here is that the arms must be synced with the body as a single unit in motion, action. So then no, the ultra high speed CPs we often see are not synced, not connected and will have very little power.

"Fast hands" in WCK means no power. Period. And they are an indicator of poor WCK. When power comes from our body movement, the speed at which you can use that power is the speed of that body movement -- if your hands move any faster than that, you are no longer using the body.

And I don't mean that the arms are "synched with the body as a single unit of movement" -- I meant precisely what I said: The arms are extensions of the body. When I hit, I hit WITH my body -- it's just that my arm is between you and my body. It is like the hammer driving a nail.

EDIT:

BTW T a good example of why and what folks need to be shown.. Many don't get this point... and need to be shown.....shown...!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So there goes your 'your teacher can't show you....' Students do need to be shown many a thing...

Skills can only be learned in two ways --you are either shown a skill by someone who has that skill or you work it out for yourself. The former makes that task of learning much more efficient.

[JPinAZ]

In contrast to this, the typical training regimen of a WCK practitioner mostly looks as follows:

1) Running – from the parking lot to the kwoon 3x per week - @600ft.
2) Jump rope – jump what?
3) Bag work – we use the dummy for that, so did the dummy sets 3x @ 7 min.
4) Pad work – we don’t need to “chase hands” with pad work – we do compliant chi sau with air punches. 30 min.
5) Sparring – on Saturdays – attendance optional and low. 1.5 hours.
6) Forums – 3 hrs / week.
So the fact that most WCK practitioner’s hands don’t contain the skill of an average boxer is not difficult to spot why.

Just as a note, not all WCK is trained as listed above. And, WCK also trains some different skills that boxing does, so the methods may differ, along with times focused.

Not sure if #6 was a typo and you meant forms, but forums 3 hrs/week isn't a far stretch either! T has to be putting in 3 times that, so he must be good!!

[k gledhill]

The power of the punch -- like everything else -- comes from your body, not your elbow or wrist.

you missed the point of post....the elbows are the focus for a reason, throughout the system. For force we have a focus on other things . Timing for one ...

[YungChun]

And I don't mean that the arms are "synched with the body

No of course not..

You mean..

if your hands move any faster than that, you are no longer using the body.

Right totally different.. The great battle of verbiage.

You are totally wrapped up in world of fixed ideas based on the words you choose and locked into your own verbiage bubble..

Real speed and power come from the body.. (Sequential Summation of Motion) Your term "fast hands" is just that, your term, referring to particular use of the hands without body connection.. BFD.

A WCK punch done with the body, fired from the body will be faster if done right than one only done with the arm.. The time between the actions CPs will increase (no egg beater) because of body connection, but real useful speed and power comes from the body, essentially hitting from the feet up...

[bennyvt]

you dont use your body when you punch other then for bracing or timing movement with the punch. The speed is dependant on if i want to time of movement with my body movement (slower, but more power) or if i just punch. The body cant note as east as the arm so if i time it the punch is slower. The body is only an brace until i connect then the body is use to transfer force. When i was teaching i used to it people to again punch as hard as they can, then as fast as they can. The hard is slower and the fast are taps. I is learning to be as fast but also hard. This is were power comes in. The more speed the less strength you can use so power is low. Finding the medium is were the most power comes from. If you are fast work on hard. If you punch hard work on speed. Can depend on size etc. As example. My teacher had a friend that did the jim fung/ tst lineage. Which is really soft in its approach. But because he was so big, Strong and amazingly quick that once he learnt to relax he had the best punch as he had the strength to back up the speed..

[YungChun]

you dont use your body when you punch other then for bracing or timing movement with the punch. The speed is dependant on if i want to time of movement with my body movement (slower, but more power) or if i just punch. The body cant note as east as the arm so if i time it the punch is slower. The body is only an brace until i connect then the body is use to transfer force. When i was teaching i used to it people to again punch as hard as they can, then as fast as they can. The hard is slower and the fast are taps. I is learning to be as fast but also hard. This is were power comes in. The more speed the less strength you can use so power is low. Finding the medium is were the most power comes from. If you are fast work on hard. If you punch hard work on speed. Can depend on size etc. As example. My teacher had a friend that did the jim fung/ tst lineage. Which is really soft in its approach. But because he was so big, Strong and amazingly quick that once he learnt to relax he had the best punch as he had the strength to back up the speed..

Hard to tell exactly what you mean.. However I would have to disagree that you can't use the body to make striking faster and more powerful.. In fact for real power the body is really doing the strike, more so than the arm.

An example is swinging a baseball bat or throwing a ball... If you use only your arms the swing/ball will be slower and less powerful.. Power and speed are related...

WCK striking with power, as I term it, is dependent on body alignment (connected mass) and syncing the opening of the joints... Bones align and the joints open as the strike is fired.. A pulse of power starts from the legs and goes upward through the spine to the arm and finally the hand or fist..etc..

Again Sequential Summation of Motion.. (see below) When you see folks doing the ultra fast (rapid succession) chain punching there is no real body involvement/connection..

The speed and velocity of a baseball when it is thrown receives its motion and momentum from the person throwing the ball. For great velocity it is necessary for the thrower to have momentum and transfer it to the ball. This transfer of momentum follows the principle of sequential summation of movement. This states that the largest body masses move first, followed progressively by smaller body masses (Barker). In baseball, the thrower of the ball represents this principle. The pitcher starts with his legs, then hips, shoulders, arm, wrist, and fingers. As each part reaches its full potential it is transfers along the line ultimately to the ball giving it momentum and velocity. This along with the rotating motion of the pitcher around his leg and the extension down the pitching mound creates maximum momentum and velocity (Barker).

[LSWCTN1]

both T and Kev are correct according to what i learn.

there are others too.

T saying that there is no elbow power in wck is laughable, but each to their own. but it does bring me to another subject i wanted to ask T (see below) *

power can also come from the relaxed arm too - we are taught this; the easiest way to describe it is in the same way as Val Riazanov's ballistic striking youtube clips.

you can of course use your body to strike, but what about turning punches etc. where you DONT use your body to strike, but the hip/sinking?

in the WSL system we very rarely block, we attack. therefore speed and angles when striking (ie arm only) are often more appropriate, even counting for the slight loss in power.

also all this sparring you do T, and still not KO'd anyone? you ought to give it up...

*T: if you were to teach wck to someone, would you teach the system as you learnt it or the things that you find appropriate?

[YungChun]

T saying that there is no elbow power in wck is laughable

Elbow power has more to do with taking position and displacement. Of course it also is part of the alignment of the whole body, second to last joint to open, the last being the supination (up tilt) of the *wrist* in the punch.

You can of course use your body to strike, but what about turning punches etc. where you DONT use your body to strike, but the hip/sinking?

What are you turning? The body, the core.. A pitcher also 'turns'..

And then there is the coiling...

[bennyvt]

unless you lean, turn, or step the body does nothing in the punch except act as an anchor. The theory you keep on saying only comes into play from the shoulder girdle when a punch is made. All other muscles in the body are resisting the bodies tendency to turn with the strike. Yes the movement should start with the large muscle groups, pec, lat etc. Then onto the rotor cuff muscle them triceps them forearm. No pulse runs from your foot to your arm. Your nervous system uses the spinal core and transmitts to yous arm and shoulder. When i have conected with the punch and recieve feedback or force from the target then i transfer it to my stance so i dont go back.

[t_niehoff]

both T and Kev are correct according to what i learn.

there are others too.

T saying that there is no elbow power in wck is laughable, but each to their own. but it does bring me to another subject i wanted to ask T (see below) *

You guys and your terms. By "elbow power" do you mean jang dae ik, elbow down power?

power can also come from the relaxed arm too - we are taught this; the easiest way to describe it is in the same way as Val Riazanov's ballistic striking youtube clips.

That stuff is utter nonsense. Let's see him do it in fighting and not to a bunch of pencil-necked scrubs in a demo.

you can of course use your body to strike, but what about turning punches etc. where you DONT use your body to strike, but the hip/sinking?

I use my body to strike whether stationary, stepping, turning, whatever. If you don't hit with your body, your strike has no power.

in the WSL system we very rarely block, we attack. therefore speed and angles when striking (ie arm only) are often more appropriate, even counting for the slight loss in power.

This is nonsense, pure theoretical dribble. Do you guys ever stop to consider what you opponent will be doing?

also all this sparring you do T, and still not KO'd anyone? you ought to give it up...

NONE OF YOU are KOing anyone. NONE. That's all fantasy of what you believe you will do should you ever fight. Well, it's not going to happen. If you aren't already doing it in your training, you aren't going to do it.

*T: if you were to teach wck to someone, would you teach the system as you learnt it or the things that you find appropriate?

I wouldn't teach "the system" since there is no system.

But, it depends on what the person who I would be teaching wanted. If they wanted the classical curriculum, I would teach them that. WCK, however, isn't the curriculum. It is an approach to fighting.