Learning Shaolin forms but not the theory or application

[marbas]

I was just wondering what everyone here thought about kung fu schools teaching the forms but not the application of these techniques. There are quite a few schools out here where I live, and one even has direct lineage from the shaolin temple, but none of them teach the theory or application behind kung fu.

I've been practicing a mutant form of "chujiquan", which looks like in incorporates some of the traditional form but I haven't seen much of the form I'm being taught now, and I haven't learned anything like the actual philosophy and application behind the techniques. I'm starting to feel like what I'm doing is useless and is just "flowery fists and embroidery kicks". Do some of you feel the same sentiment? And is there a point to learning kung fu when you're not learning the buddhist philosophy or application of these techniques?

[SAAMAG]

IMO, the Buddhism aspect is irrelevant to learning kung fu. Forms though, in addition to giving a more productive method of general exercise, serve as catalogs for the system's techniques and methods of movement. They would no better than lifting weights and running on a treadmill without the meanings behind the movements.

There are reasons why you may not be learning the meanings yet, those reasons should be asked of your teachers though.

Good luck.

[LFJ]

IMO, the Buddhism aspect is irrelevant to learning kung fu. Forms though, in addition to giving a more productive method of general exercise, serve as catalogs for the system's techniques and methods of movement. They would no better than lifting weights and running on a treadmill without the meanings behind the movements.

There are reasons why you may not be learning the meanings yet, those reasons should be asked of your teachers though.

Good luck.

The Buddhist philosophy aspect is irrelevant if the style is not Buddhist. Shaolin Monastery arts however have specific names for each technique that often times point out philosophical principles within the Shaolin culture. So it is very much relevant if you are learning the complete art, which includes the cultural aspect.

As for training forms without the applications shown, there is still benefit from training your body-mechanics. Many teachers choose not to reveal the applications until your body-mechanics are solid. Otherwise the application would be useless. Other teachers feel the whys are every bit as important as the hows from day one. Either way there is benefit if you focus and train hard following your teachers instructions.

[GeneChing]

Some students learn forms without application or philosophy, and that's fine. That's their choice. Some learn one application for most moves and a little philosophy, and that's fine too. Some learn a lot of applications for every move. It just depends on how far you want to go.

No matter what, if you feel what you are learning is lacking, you need to fill the gaps. Find out more. Traditionally, the teacher would never tell you. Some teachers, well, they just don't know. All a teacher can do is open the door for you. You have to go through. Sometimes going through that door means finding another teacher.

I disagree with Vankuen's comment, "They would no better than lifting weights and running on a treadmill without the meanings behind the movements." First of all, there's an implication that lifting weights and running on a treadmill isn't very good. For most Americans, that's their entire workout regimen, and that's fine. What's more, too many martial artists overlook this type of training. My contention is a little deeper. I'd say that practicing forms, even if just the external movements, provides the weekend athlete with more grace and balance than just weights and treadmill. It's not necessarily that much more, and not an absolute given, but I'll still make the distinction.

[bawang]

I'm starting to feel like what I'm doing is useless and is just "flowery fists and embroidery kicks".

yes you are. stop immediately

by continuing you will actively participate in destruction of chinese martial arts. you will be financially supporting frauds and make them more powerful

[David Jamieson]

If you want more martial in your martial arts then that's what you have to look for.
There's plenty of places that practice esoteric stuff, label it martial arts, but tend to stay away from too martial of an approach for any number of reasons.

There's a lot of books in a library. Plenty of them I can't be bothered with reading.

[pazman]

If students aren't really interested in the applications, that's fine...they still stand to gain some benefit. But if they aren't shown the correct application, how will they be able to do the form correctly?

As for teachers who don't know the applications, that's unacceptable and they should find a new line of work. Unfortunately, there are a lot of "fake" teachers here and in America that should be calling themselves fitness coaches and not gongfu masters. They take advantage of the fact that in Chinese culture students generally never question the teacher. But good "real" teachers are the same around the world...they love it when their students ask questions and they want to give every opportunity for their students to succeed.

Marbas...if your teacher does not know or practice the application to the forms, leave them, they are wasting your time. Seek out people from the Buddhist community in your area if you want to learn Buddhist philosophy. There are many styles of martial arts that teach you "applications" from the start, choose one that looks fun and practical.

[RenDaHai]

Applications...

There should be no very specific applications for specific moves. The beauty of these old forms is that each move has 10000 changes. Your teacher should not necessarily have to highlight every application, you can do this yourself. but what he does need to do is to inspire you. To teach you the THEORY and PRINCIPLES of wushu. When you understand these you won't need him to tell you applications, as you will be able to derive them yourself.

Every move can be 'Ti, Da, Shuai, Na'. Every move can be applied as a 'kick, strike, throw, capture'. Every move can be applied in all frames from the very small frame i.e on someones finger, to the very large frame i.e on someones whole body. The principles on how to apply are important, not the specific moves. The Formula, not the numbers.

Form is a lot more than people give it credit for. You can learn a great deal just by practicing form, but you need to understand this isn't just a random collection of moves (well, if you learn a modern form it probably is). They are a poetic sequence which holds a great deal of the architects wisdom. Without understanding some principles of wushu, it is less useful.

I wouldn't worry too much about application, but if you are learning no principles or theory then perhaps you could be better spending your time. Are you at least learning about body mechanics? About how to release power?

[marbas]

Marbas...if your teacher does not know or practice the application to the forms, leave them, they are wasting your time. Seek out people from the Buddhist community in your area if you want to learn Buddhist philosophy. There are many styles of martial arts that teach you "applications" from the start, choose one that looks fun and practical.

He knows the application, I can tell from his background. But I've been to six classes and haven't seen them teach me or anyone else the application. And they told me they did teach application when I asked them before signing up. I go to class today, and I'm going to ask about it.

I wouldn't worry too much about application, but if you are learning no principles or theory then perhaps you could be better spending your time. Are you at least learning about body mechanics? About how to release power?

I'm not learning any of that. They show you the movements they want you to practice and that's about it. After they show you they walk away and you practice them by yourself repeatedly. The only advice they give me about release power or body mechanics is "faster, more power". And you're right that I can tell the application of some of the things right off the back, but I don't know when I'll ever need to block or punch while in horse stance. I took some other martial arts before kung fu and each time we learned something we were told what the move was for and exactly how to do it, even if it was a relatively basic move. Then we practiced it on one another for 20 mins. That might not seem like much, but I can tell you that those moves are ingrained in me and I know when the chance opens up for me to use them. Especially since we practiced open sparring for 20 mins each class as well. However, that isn't what I'm learning in kung fu.

Maybe my expectations are too high?

[bawang]

the teacher supposed to teach shaolin but teaches u chujiquan modern wushu form
ur already learning a form on the sixth class and thats normal for u

sumting is wrong wit both of u

[Songshan]

He knows the application, I can tell from his background. But I've been to six classes and haven't seen them teach me or anyone else the application. And they told me they did teach application when I asked them before signing up. I go to class today, and I'm going to ask about it.

I'm not learning any of that. They show you the movements they want you to practice and that's about it. After they show you they walk away and you practice them by yourself repeatedly. The only advice they give me about release power or body mechanics is "faster, more power". And you're right that I can tell the application of some of the things right off the back, but I don't know when I'll ever need to block or punch while in horse stance. I took some other martial arts before kung fu and each time we learned something we were told what the move was for and exactly how to do it, even if it was a relatively basic move. Then we practiced it on one another for 20 mins. That might not seem like much, but I can tell you that those moves are ingrained in me and I know when the chance opens up for me to use them. Especially since we practiced open sparring for 20 mins each class as well. However, that isn't what I'm learning in kung fu.

Maybe my expectations are too high?

With only 6 classes in the books.....I'd say yes you are expecting a lot right away. Considering your background (any prior training?) I am suprised you are even being taught a fighting form with applications. I seen a lot of people hang up their Feiyue shoes because they kept looking past the 18 basics (taught at most modern shaolin schools) and not concentrating ON the 18 basics. When you do that where is your foundation? Zero.

Give it time. Learn your basics before you dive off into the fighting applications. They will come in time.

[marbas]

the teacher supposed to teach shaolin but teaches u chujiquan modern wushu form
ur already learning a form on the sixth class and thats normal for u

sumting is wrong wit both of u

My teacher is a former 31st generation shaolin monk. I don't think you have an idea of what you're talking about. He isn't teaching me a wushu form. And it's wrong of me to expect to be able to use what I'm learning if I ever have to, especially from a warrior monk?

*sarcasm*I guess you're right bawang, I shouldn't expect to learn how to fight in a martial arts school. *sarcasm*

Considering your background (any prior training?) I am suprised you are even being taught a fighting form with applications. I seen a lot of people hang up their Feiyue shoes because they kept looking past the 18 basics (taught at most modern shaolin schools) and not concentrating ON the 18 basics. When you do that where is your foundation? Zero.

Yes, BJJ and Jiu jitsu. Each for about a year. I see what you mean, thanks.

[Fei Li]

six classes is nothing. after six month you may have some sort of basics.
after six years you are maybe good at what they teach (with hard work).
Gong fu is about patience and hard work. Just do what they tell you, the rest will come…

[Eugene]

ChujiQuan is a basic stance / linking boxing set right ?

@marbas
You might drill on this for a year, you will have a nice result, even without the application,

drilling is like a big hammer, let the hammer fall on each posuture of this quan set, and it will come out nice

[mawali]

I was just wondering what everyone here thought about kung fu schools teaching the forms but not the application of these techniques. There are quite a few schools out here where I live, and one even has direct lineage from the shaolin temple, but none of them teach the theory or application behind kung fu.

I've been practicing a mutant form of "chujiquan", which looks like in incorporates some of the traditional form but I haven't seen much of the form I'm being taught now, and I haven't learned anything like the actual philosophy and application behind the techniques. I'm starting to feel like what I'm doing is useless and is just "flowery fists and embroidery kicks". Do some of you feel the same sentiment? And is there a point to learning kung fu when you're not learning the buddhist philosophy or application of these techniques?

Learning form without background or application is worthless but you can still possess "flowery fists and embroided kicks". It comes down to smoke and mirrors!
Absorb the form (make it second nature) and try to find a teacher who knows concept and principle. Dont't solely rely on application but on concept.
No need to know a bunch of forms but definately find someone who can teach jibengong and shenfa (for lack of better terminology).
No need for philosophy either. You are conscious, over 19 years (I hope) and have been taught some fundamental stuff by your parents that would allow you to fuinction in the world.