Strongest punch?

[SAAMAG]

I bring this up because tonight I was working the bag and focus mitts, and my girlfriend stated that the wing chun punch didn't seem to feel like it had as much power as my natural cross.

I asked her "in what way do you mean?" She said when I throw a quick and natural cross (from arms being held naturally at my sides) it radiates through her wrist, elbow, shoulder, and body. She said when I throw the wing chun punch it doesn't feel the same, like it doesn't radiate through her arm as much.

So I tested it on something more resiliant--my heavy bag (not swinging, just solid against the wall). It felt and sounded just as powerful as a natural overhand right...but doing it again on the pads it indeed felt like there wasn't as much feedback--yet structurally everything felt right and all was lined up--elbow, hips, wrist--rooted to the ground.

Possible Factors?

• Pad holder not giving the same feedback for each punch
• The wing chun punch is just weaker by way of design (or you could say the natural punch (cross) is stronger by design)
• Perhaps I did not give enough follow through with my wing chun punch as compared to my natural cross (or perhaps I wasn't close enough to the pad to give it enough penetrating power)
• I did not have enough chi behind it
• My wing chun is terrible and I should just quit now

---

In any case though it got me thinking about puching power...what have you been told your strongest punch was? Doesn't matter if its wing chun or otherwise. I've had my normal partner tell me my overhand right is enough to drop him even with the belly pad on. I've been told by others that the wing chun straight punch is strong, but no where near the same level as the overhand. So while the wing chun punch was considered to be strong by this guy--relatively speaking the boxing punch was simply stronger (in feel through pads)

On a side note do you think that the wing chun punch can be as strong as any other punch in general -- or more specifically the cross? Or do you think that the punch is limited by its design relatively speaking?

Do you depend on li for the power or chi? If its the latter, have you compared the punch with other punches that you learned that might not depend on chi specifically?

[YungChun]

Chi for power?

Anyway, when I want to make power I have over the years developed what I see in essentially the second form, although the structure is also in SLT.. I basically send a short pulse from my 'horse' up through my body with and when I strike... The result is the pulse of the whole body goes out through the strike.. I have found it pretty powerful.. Typically WCK strikes will rely less on momentum and more on body alignment (connected mass) and joint/muscle acceleration.. Of course there is more than one kind of WCK punch/strike and more than one way to do it. I also let my body, depending on the conditions, naturally extend and turn slightly as opposed to keeping my body stiff like a bar of soap...

The most powerful strike I have found over the years is a correctly executed reverse punch... This is not that unlike a cross or similar strike but it is done with a tremendous amount of body projection/rotation whereby you can take up very long distances quickly as you do the punch and often times the lead foot does not quite land until after the punch has begun it's impact.. I don't use this move anymore however.

HTH

[goju]

my strongest was strait lead and hook/ uppercut


i remember when i was i first started martial arts my pad work was inspired by bruce lee pad striking in his jet kune do books

he would always blast the pad with force that would send his partners arms swinging way back from the power of his strike and to this day i see that rarely when i watch guys do pads many of them barely even move the mitt or pad at all

but eventually over time i developed enough power to do it so every time i punch i try to knock my partners arm back far and i try to unbalance him too from the hit



but wc speaking i think the most impressive punches ive ever seen were from a master named wang zhi peng

did not look like it would be fun to be punched by that guy lol

[YungChun]

he would always blast the pad with force that would send his partners arms swinging way back from the power of his strike

The WCK whipping punch is good for that because of the velocity and penetration.. The short power striking is a different animal.

[SAAMAG]

Chi for power?

That was to be inclusive of those that do use chi for the gas tank and jing as the horsepower. There are lines of wing chun that still depend on the internal sides of things as described by others here. So I'm trying to be all-inclusive with my discussion.

The reverse punch was the first punch I learned...ever. So I suppose that could have something to do with the power that I've attained using it and variations of it. Good point you made as well with the conjunctive footwork--when stepping with a punch, it's a good habit in my experience to have the punch land first a fraction before the stepping foot touches down. Great point!

Do you think the design element of wing chun's jik chung choi or chung kuen allows for the full potentional of power that one can generate from the human body given the range it works in? I'm talking about the quintessential--no upper body motion--punch from the chest, driving with the elbow--vertical punch.

[SAAMAG]

but wc speaking i think the most impressive punches ive ever seen were from a master named wang zhi peng

did not look like it would be fun to be punched by that guy lol

Odd that you mentioned him, I actually watched a you tube video of him just today for the very first time! Ironic.

Yea his body punch (Joong lo kuen) looked good...rooted from the ground you see it go through his hip, through the shoulder and down the arm. I'd imagine it didn't feel too good either.

[Vajramusti]

My informed opinion is that when properly developed, a wing chun punch can be as powerful as a boxing punch- while taking less chances of being hit.

The wing chun punch- depends on good wing chun stance and good wing chun body works and integrated motions including the feet. The key is learning and practicing the fundamentals
regularly and well... including coordinated releasing , not "pushing" of the power in the joints.
Unfortunately, many chain punchers do not seem to know what they are doing.

There are lots of good western boxers, few good wing chun folks. Kung fu is less mass produced
historically as well as now. Commerce and related greed , poor instruction and poorer training are
sources of some poor wing chun punching. It is easier to find good boxing, grappling and mma instruction than wing chun instruction depending on where one lives.That is why I suggest to newbies- get the best instructor you can find-that is more important than the name of the style.

joy chaudhuri

[SAAMAG]

My informed opinion is that when properly developed, a wing chun punch can be as powerful as a boxing punch- while taking less chances of being hit.

The wing chun punch- depends on good wing chun stance and good wing chun body works and integrated motions including the feet. The key is learning and practicing the fundamentals
regularly and well... including coordinated releasing , not "pushing" of the power in the joints.
Unfortunately, many chain punchers do not seem to know what they are doing.

There are lots of good western boxers, few good wing chun folks. Kung fu is less mass produced
historically as well as now. Commerce and related greed , poor instruction and poorer training are
sources of some poor wing chun punching. It is easier to find good boxing, grappling and mma instruction than wing chun instruction depending on where one lives.That is why I suggest to newbies- get the best instructor you can find-that is more important than the name of the style.

joy chaudhuri

Thanks for the reply Joy. Though we're not talking about general boxing vs. general wing chun. We're talking Chung Kuen vs. (right) Cross, and whether or not the structural differences can be a factor using "li" as the generator.

The second part was...what is your personal strongest punch?

[k gledhill]

Me persoanlly it's the turning / facing strike ,coupled with the timing of an incoming target = I could send guys sliding on their butts 6-7 ft after hitting them....I had guys come up to me after seeing this 'event' at clubs and say how good the 'punch' was....

Power source = the quadriceps are flexed and contracted as we strike in sharp focused extensions of the driving energy into the ground. The basic stance training allows the legs the endurance to maintain a low position as we move, adding CK facing without lifting the hips horizontal plane as we move ...~~~~ hip bad / --------hip good .

Timing = this energy is transmitted through a good structure as the hips are driven into the facing , turn of the action ...shoulders are controlled to move a little but not over turn. The striking arm should be relaxed and bent slightly inwards ...almost like uppercuts in angling. Force can be shown to be taken by 'stealing' space of your strikes distance...iow I can show you its too slow or to wrong timing simply by letting you hit my chest and doing certain things ..it only takes a few inches of movement. Add arm deflection angles and we see that the simple combination of all the actions is coupled into our training regimen...over and over...simple actions combined , for alignment, timing, balance, structure.etc....boring repetitions...no over feeling, trapping etc..

Drills to achieve this goal= Seung Ma ~ Toi Ma drills focus on this action and is repeated 1000's of times to make the structure of the angling moving stance reach its completion together with the angling arm / elbow in strike.

...so the impact force , deflection, timing, balance, physical alignment/structure/hips is all focused into that singularity , makes for a short punch relying on timing.

I have met 90% of VT guys who DONT do this, instead they use the wrist to try and stop the tan....some dont even shift as you come at them...others move backwards in a straight line in front of your attacking line....not a good place to be, even if your 'sifu' bs's about fighting the inside gate ...aka dont know how to shift/angle strike. Some let you step and do a hand gesture as if the strike would have any force...we steal force by attacking their striking space..

The inch punch is a 'test' to prove the ability AND use deflection angles at the same time iow not to open the elbows and trade punches just to give max force. The strike without retraction [ many can be seen pushing shoulders] is to give the strikes point of impact a 'test' of alignment, stance= feet positions, hips facing, shoulders....isolating a moment in time for our benefit.

During Seung Ma Toi Ma, we do a 1/2 step attacking entry to allow our partners to strike us and angle relative to the sides attacking limb...left or right...making it intuitive , adding space of a face off later for sparring etc... as the entry stops at the 1/2 step all the alignment , hips, strike, elbow angles...are combined into the ONE action ...we keep the wrists floppy so the focus is a relaxed strike but with shoulder girdle muscle groups contracted to maintain the critical forearm/upper arm angles ....after a check the attacker steps again to 'check' or 'prove' the connections by following up with the full attacking entry action.....later not stopping 1/2 step is done in a more flowing random exchange....
Inch punching at the 1/2 step can show force is maxed with perfect timing...or to slow, losing the max / pact position or to early ...over extension, no deflection trade punches etc...or bad feet, wobbly, off balance...you freeze ? dont move at all...move to the wrong side it all happens under pressure of the 'here and now' of chi-sao....

If you use short shuffling attacking steps the driving force is being generated from extending into the ground all the legs force in short sharp bursts, meaning any arm action with good structural positioning will harness this force...this can be strikes in cycling deflection, trapping , lan sao's..etc....
With correct 3"x3" shuffling movements we can generate an unbroken line of force, transmitted through the contact point we use, this can be any part of our body. The most critical part and simplest to take advantage of is which foot moves first in a given direction....very simple to attack a person who is simply trying not to fall backwards out of balance...sudden attacks will capitalize on MISTAKES made ...rather than set pieces or 'moves' that allow all kinds of mistakes to be made without ever taking advantage of them....a lot of mistakes will happen without you knowing until you attack them...loss of balance, bad timed strikes, over controlling your ARMS makes it easier to keep attacking their stances, they create bridges for you , we dont look for them...we strike until we are stopped, trying to recover striking again asap....

Not using a lead leg inside gate charge either...seen a lot in you tube with the same results...this is similar to a guy attacking a trench in wartime across a field...he charges right down the center firing..only he doesnt know that the opponent wants this and lets him come , because he has a machine gun in each end of the receiving line.... He is a dead man. Only a matter of time which gun takes him out firing as he goes for one then another...

CK teaches this...easy to do hard to repeat...I have used the incorrect energy 'pulse' from attackers to counter them in bar fights....lots of guys grab 95% first before hitting making it easy to feel their energy pulse...when you click into the 'metronome' of their force you can play them like rag dolls....

Remember facing/turning is only to angle your attack/strike centerline AT the opponent ... so in a fight you will move with the guy and shift pivot angle face etc...to achieve a natural angle on the guy as you hit him...so you free yourself from seeking to control by feeling, instead you become a free moving fighter hitting gaps available rather than thinking to control water first. if you are using actions even at their most basic level that incorporate attack and defense ...you gain an advantage over those who dont know this way and use controlling double hand exchanges for everything....what I was taught in VT before discovering a more efficient method....

Good timing will make any punch powerful...positions & tactics will help to avoid a double punch traded KO

Why we place so much on 'staying with what comes' and adopting a side stance that can pivot and realign quickly along a perimeter , allowing facing a moving target without having lead leg that commits you to back and forth ...if you move away so does your point of impact and your not attacking. Use a lead leg stance and your that guy charging into the filed of battle ...better to wait with guns at your sides...see what the guy does, let him show you what action to take. side stances allow quick angling etc...as the dummy we enter from the sides but attack and shift back and forth across its face ...we adopt facing actions for symmetry , like double juts sao's but only for developing the 'jut'....

Many interpret this as hands stick with what comes in chi-sao, leading to over controlling quagmire of hand games in a redundant self deluding ability to fight guys who just wail in on you ; ) iow guys will make you stay with an arm [tan] coming in and then strike as it retreats ...common misunderstanding...the arms are training striking what comes ..hitting the 'glass' head as it comes with simultaneous strike defense arms in rotation, allowing unstoppable attacking actions... a goal we have...not stick to a guys arms endlessly... but to HIT THEM WITH SUFFICIENT FORCE [ loud ] capable of stopping further attacking .

Boxers generate tremendous amounts of force from low elbows too ...they bob and weave / duck so dont require elbow deflection / strikes ....I taught a student who was also training at Gleasons, he said his boxing coach noticed his jab had improved since training in VT.

strong coffee !

[Matrix]

I think Kevin's reply answers your question.

What I find interesting is that you call your cross "natural" in a way that makes me think your WC is unnatural.

[SAAMAG]

I think Kevin's reply answers your question.

What I find interesting is that you call your cross "natural" in a way that makes me think your WC is unnatural.

It's a question for general discussion moreso, spawned by a training occurance.

The reason I call it a "natural" cross because its coming from my hands being held naturally at my sides. I practice in that way on occasion because there may be instances where I don't have time to bring my hands up in a guard position before needing to strike.

Like shooting a gun from immediatly and directly from the holster as opposed to being in proper form and aiming for ten seconds before firing.

[JPinAZ]

Van,

When I first started WC, I had the same feeling - my right cross had WAY more power than I could deliver from my 'WC punch'. And, not to sound ****y, I had a pretty good/strong right.
As my structural alignment (heel, knee, hip,elbow)and range/timing of the WC punch increased, the difference between the two punches felt a lot less, but it was still there. I could see this easier when punching against a fully weighted BOB. I could lay bob out flat with the cross, but not all the way over with the WC punch.

To be honest, today I can't say the same thing. I feel my WC punch has a lot more behind it than my cross now, and sparring partners feel the same way. I've been told that force from the WC punch runs down their spine when I make contact vs. what is felt from the cross. Basically they are 2 different punches, are delivered differently and have a different structure behind them.

Which brings me to my point. When I hit a mitt someone is holding, the cross's energy comes straight at it, at a level height with the mitt. The WC punch's energy originates from the floor through the body, through the elbow with the fist traveling both fwd and upward toward target. It follows a different path than the cross. So, it may always feel a little less powerful on the mitt and to the holder for this reason. Or, maybe (no slight meant here), your mechanics could be off a little with the WC punch.
For me, I have noticed both punches sound different on the mitt as well. The cross has a more higher pitched snap, while the WC punch has more of a lower pitched thud. I believe this has to do with how the punch is structured and how the body supports the punch.

Anyway, it took me some time to see this for myself, but the beauty of the WC punch is that it offers a lot more in the way of efficiency in delivering the energy into our opponent, which I think is really key. Once one has the proper structure and set-up, the WC punch can feel like a freight train to the person on the receiving end of the punch with a lot less effort.

[Matrix]

The reason I call it a "natural" cross because its coming from my hands being held naturally at my sides. I practice in that way on occasion because there may be instances where I don't have time to bring my hands up in a guard position before needing to strike.

Like shooting a gun from immediatly and directly from the holster as opposed to being in proper form and aiming for ten seconds before firing.

Interesting. Maybe you should try that with your WC punch. There's no need to start from the guard position.

I believe there is an idiom about not standing on ceremony, or something like that.

[SAAMAG]

Interesting. Maybe you should try that with your WC punch. There's no need to start from the guard position.

I believe there is an idiom about not standing on ceremony, or something like that.

I do actually...but It ends up being more jkd-ish

[Ultimatewingchun]

In my opinion tha strongest punch that can possibly be thrown is the overhand that comes from the rear hand - like what Fedor used recently to knock out Brett Rogers.

......................


And with that in mind, imo, the strongest wing chun punch that can ever be thrown is from the rear hand with a half step forward - like throwing a rear cross but with the elbows down and in toward the side of the ribs and with the punching hand either completely vertical or at a 45 degree angle.