Strongest punch?

[Hardwork108]

What do you attribute as the primary factor for that punch being your hardest?

IMHO, sometimes when one tries to identify primary factors in some kung fu techniques, one will be in danger of missing the wood for the trees.

So to answer your question in another way, the punch will have its power when various factors come together and meet at the point of impact.

So we are talking about aspects that include, forward motion; body unity; relaxedness; borrowed power coming through the bridge(block), transferring through the turning of the (rooted) stance into the fist and of course the correct/well timed breathing.

All of this together will result in the power effect of the punch.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The thing that you have to remember is that a strong punch needs to be something that is landable. There are ways to throw a cross that would knock down a door, but that type of cross is almost un-landable. The WC cross is nice and tight and highly landable among other things.

It all works to some extent or another it just depends on your purpose.

[SAAMAG]

it really depends on how you classify a "wing chun punch". i assume you just use your arm

if you throw your punch without turning your hips or shoulder or putting any body weight into it, then you are just using your arms and of course it will not have as much power compared to a punch thrown with hips and shoulders.

not everyone throws a "wing chun punch" like that

You know what they say about assuming.

Though I agree that people will inherently do things differently, in my case everything comes from the ground, through the joints and into the point of impact. I just noticed that there's a distinct difference from one punch to the other.

The key word is "relative".

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The key is to hit with your whole body... and to maximize the incorporation of your total body mass..and joints.. via body alignment (connected mass) and using all those muscles/joints (esp legs) to make that power (sequential summation of motion). Like Mr Miyagi said, secret of power is 'whole body, (into) one inch'. It's all in the forms, you just need to express it in action, but maybe you already are..." (Jim/Yungchun)

...............................

"To me Relaxation, especially in the shoulders, but throughout the body is critical. You may have have all the form and structure you want, but if you are tight, you kill the power. Think of tension as kinks in a hose. A kink in a hose limits or even cuts off the water flow. You can turn the valve up as high as you can to get maximum power from the water source, but the water power is cut down the line by these points of tension." (Matrix)


***TWO GOOD POSTS right there. Wow! Van is back, Jim is back, Bill is back...and already this forum is starting to look and read like a wing chun forum again!

And when Wayfaring followed Bill/Matrix's remarks with this:

"If you do not train striking in an alive 100% contact environment, then when you do get into an evironment like that, there is a great deal of tension present due to the situation being different than how you train. I see this with fighters - there is a "first fight" experience they all go through - the tension, the adrenaline dump, the narrowing of focus and skillset. People forget to do things in the ring/cage that they know how to do in practice. If you train in an environment similar to that it minimizes this effect...."

****THEN WE GOT TO SEE a serious wing chun punching thread in action once again! Very cool.....

[SAAMAG]

"The key is to hit with your whole body... and to maximize the incorporation of your total body mass..and joints.. via body alignment (connected mass) and using all those muscles/joints (esp legs) to make that power (sequential summation of motion). Like Mr Miyagi said, secret of power is 'whole body, (into) one inch'. It's all in the forms, you just need to express it in action, but maybe you already are..." (Jim/Yungchun)

...............................

"To me Relaxation, especially in the shoulders, but throughout the body is critical. You may have have all the form and structure you want, but if you are tight, you kill the power. Think of tension as kinks in a hose. A kink in a hose limits or even cuts off the water flow. You can turn the valve up as high as you can to get maximum power from the water source, but the water power is cut down the line by these points of tension." (Matrix)


***TWO GOOD POSTS right there. Wow! Van is back, Jim is back, Bill is back...and already this forum is starting to look and read like a wing chun forum again!

And when Wayfaring followed Bill/Matrix's remarks with this:

"If you do not train striking in an alive 100% contact environment, then when you do get into an evironment like that, there is a great deal of tension present due to the situation being different than how you train. I see this with fighters - there is a "first fight" experience they all go through - the tension, the adrenaline dump, the narrowing of focus and skillset. People forget to do things in the ring/cage that they know how to do in practice. If you train in an environment similar to that it minimizes this effect...."

****THEN WE GOT TO SEE a serious wing chun punching thread in action once again! Very cool.....

Agreed. These are the kinds of conversations that should be more prevelent in this forum. Doesn't matter who is better than who, or even if someone does something different. It all is wing chun in some form or fashion, and its the differences that can help us all to see things in a universal way instead of in a narrow-minded way.

There's a rhyme and reason for the questions I ask. I like to use them to spur discussions that can help bring to light the details that we all learn about through our individual paths to enlightment.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Who needs a strong punch when you can do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDYyv-iLmRY

[anerlich]

So in your opinion is it simply a matter of repitition of the proper form that allows your instructor that power? Or is there something more to it?

Repetition, yes, I think, but not mindless repetition. He did, and made his students do, a lot of integration of footwork, strike, and breath. Big on relaxation as well.

My instructor, while not a couch potato, wasn't hugely into physical conditioning.

OTOH, he was a nidan in goju ryu back in the sixties before he switched to TCMA, back in the days when they used to break large quantities of building materials...

[SAAMAG]

Repetition, yes, I think, but not mindless repetition. He did, and made his students do, a lot of integration of footwork, strike, and breath. Big on relaxation as well.

My instructor, while not a couch potato, wasn't hugely into physical conditioning.

OTOH, he was a nidan in goju ryu back in the sixties before he switched to TCMA, back in the days when they used to break large quantities of building materials...

That might have something to do with it. One of the best ways to develop punching power is by punching things...hard.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I bring this up because tonight I was working the bag and focus mitts, and my girlfriend stated that the wing chun punch didn't seem to feel like it had as much power as my natural cross.

I asked her "in what way do you mean?" She said when I throw a quick and natural cross (from arms being held naturally at my sides) it radiates through her wrist, elbow, shoulder, and body. She said when I throw the wing chun punch it doesn't feel the same, like it doesn't radiate through her arm as much.

So I tested it on something more resiliant--my heavy bag (not swinging, just solid against the wall). It felt and sounded just as powerful as a natural overhand right...but doing it again on the pads it indeed felt like there wasn't as much feedback--yet structurally everything felt right and all was lined up--elbow, hips, wrist--rooted to the ground.

Possible Factors?

• Pad holder not giving the same feedback for each punch
• The wing chun punch is just weaker by way of design (or you could say the natural punch (cross) is stronger by design)
• Perhaps I did not give enough follow through with my wing chun punch as compared to my natural cross (or perhaps I wasn't close enough to the pad to give it enough penetrating power)
• I did not have enough chi behind it
• My wing chun is terrible and I should just quit now

---

In any case though it got me thinking about puching power...what have you been told your strongest punch was? Doesn't matter if its wing chun or otherwise. I've had my normal partner tell me my overhand right is enough to drop him even with the belly pad on. I've been told by others that the wing chun straight punch is strong, but no where near the same level as the overhand. So while the wing chun punch was considered to be strong by this guy--relatively speaking the boxing punch was simply stronger (in feel through pads)

On a side note do you think that the wing chun punch can be as strong as any other punch in general -- or more specifically the cross? Or do you think that the punch is limited by its design relatively speaking?

Do you depend on li for the power or chi? If its the latter, have you compared the punch with other punches that you learned that might not depend on chi specifically?

There are two types of "power" that one can produce, though they typically work together.
Momentum based impact force - Cross, hook, uppercut, round kick, etc.
Teh impact force of this strikes is based on the momentum generated, as such, the longer the limb, the faster the acceleration, the rigidity of the contact surface and much more, all play into how much impact force will be felt ( what is felt and what is generated are NOT the same thing by the way).
The other type is "impulse" or kinetic energy based impact force- usually called "fa jing" in TCMA.
This force is based on the amount of energy one can "put into" the target and has very little to do with momentum.
Think Jab or backfist to short elbows, snapping front kicks, things of this nature.
The vast majority of pads and bag tend to deprive kinetic energy based strikes from most of their "BAM" because they absorbe the strike and as such, momentum based strikes are more obvious.

[SAAMAG]

There are two types of "power" that one can produce, though they typically work together.
Momentum based impact force - The other type is "impulse" or kinetic energy

That's the way I thought of fa jing [kinetic energy]...at least the way I interpreted it in terms of western science. I'd listen to the chinese theory and think about how it correlated with science to find the western "equivelent".

I thought about this too...in terms of physics.

If we can agree that force = mass x velocity^2...
and we can safely say that the mass is the same...
than the only piece that can affect the amount of force is the velocity.

For the velocity piece, I think that the equation of initial velocity + acceleration x time would be appropriate.

If we're using these equations (generally of course since there's no hard numbers)...I'd say that perhaps the fact that the wing chun punch doesn't travel in as much distance, and hence not able to build up as much acceleration, that perhaps the punch is limited by design relative to the overhand or cross due to that punch's longer pathway and thus higher level of achieved acceleration (assuming that the amount of acceleration isn't maxed within the same distance as the wing chun punch).

Then again...if we're talking impact force then the equation would change a bit to be m x v^2 / time of contact (time of contact being contact area / velocity^2). So the amount of time in contact could be a factor as well.

Either way...kinetic energy is developed through acceleration. The amount of kinetic energy an object has is related to its velocity (x 2). So if we can agree on that, would not the wing chun punch be a disadvantage unless the puncher could accelerate the same amount as the cross in that shorter distance?

Yes-No? I'm not a physics major I just thought it'd be fun to look at it in more structured terms.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;995327]There are two types of "power" that one can produce, though they typically work together.

(Can if properly developed).

Momentum based impact force - Cross, hook, uppercut, round kick, etc.
Teh impact force of this strikes is based on the momentum generated, as such, the longer the limb, the faster the acceleration, the rigidity of the contact surface and much more, all play into how much impact force will be felt ( what is felt and what is generated are NOT the same thing by the way).

((Easier to demonstrate on heavy bags and similar things.The distinction you make between what is felt and what is generated is IMO a good one.Sometimes the generated power is not completely delivered))


The other type is "impulse" or kinetic energy based impact force- usually called "fa jing" in TCMA.

(Fa jing is probably Mandarin- in some Cantonese it could be" bau ja geng" or explosive power-easier to be felt by the recipient- not necessarily as evident on a hand held pad. The tacit knowledge of the observer more important in assessment than in the first type of power.

These are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Depends on training, skill and context))

Joy Chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's the way I thought of fa jing [kinetic energy]...at least the way I interpreted it in terms of western science. I'd listen to the chinese theory and think about how it correlated with science to find the western "equivelent".

I thought about this too...in terms of physics.

If we can agree that force = mass x velocity^2...
and we can safely say that the mass is the same...
than the only piece that can affect the amount of force is the velocity.

For the velocity piece, I think that the equation of initial velocity + acceleration x time would be appropriate.

If we're using these equations (generally of course since there's no hard numbers)...I'd say that perhaps the fact that the wing chun punch doesn't travel in as much distance, and hence not able to build up as much acceleration, that perhaps the punch is limited by design relative to the overhand or cross due to that punch's longer pathway and thus higher level of achieved acceleration (assuming that the amount of acceleration isn't maxed within the same distance as the wing chun punch).

Then again...if we're talking impact force then the equation would change a bit to be m x v^2 / time of contact (time of contact being contact area / velocity^2). So the amount of time in contact could be a factor as well.

Either way...kinetic energy is developed through acceleration. The amount of kinetic energy an object has is related to its velocity (x 2). So if we can agree on that, would not the wing chun punch be a disadvantage unless the puncher could accelerate the same amount as the cross in that shorter distance?

Yes-No? I'm not a physics major I just thought it'd be fun to look at it in more structured terms.

Vankuen,
The time of contact is VERY crucial and is something that is typically over looked.
The harder the contact and impact surface, the less time the greater the kinetic energy transfer.
This is why, typically, short power ( inch power, fa jing, whatever) is applied to the head.

How much impact we can transfer to a target with our strikes is based on how well we strike ( if all else is equal) because the power we generate is not always All transfered to the target.
There has to be quite a bit of "perfect" conditons for all the energy to be transfered and typically that doesn't happen in a real fight.

So we must, to begin with, generate as much force as possible.
Don't get over "physics" on it because physics has to be tailored to biomechanics.
Suffice to say that, for a "powerful" strike one must:
Apply as much mass as possible.
Accelerate as much as possible.
Decelerate as least as possible.
Follow through enough.
Make contact "just" enough to penetrate the target.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;995350]

There are two types of "power" that one can produce, though they typically work together.

(Can if properly developed).

Momentum based impact force - Cross, hook, uppercut, round kick, etc.
Teh impact force of this strikes is based on the momentum generated, as such, the longer the limb, the faster the acceleration, the rigidity of the contact surface and much more, all play into how much impact force will be felt ( what is felt and what is generated are NOT the same thing by the way).

((Easier to demonstrate on heavy bags and similar things.The distinction you make between what is felt and what is generated is IMO a good one.Sometimes the generated power is not completely delivered))


The other type is "impulse" or kinetic energy based impact force- usually called "fa jing" in TCMA.

(Fa jing is probably Mandarin- in some Cantonese it could be" bau ja geng" or explosive power-easier to be felt by the recipient- not necessarily as evident on a hand held pad. The tacit knowledge of the observer more important in assessment than in the first type of power.

These are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Depends on training, skill and context))

Joy Chaudhuri

Agreed on all points.

[SAAMAG]

Vankuen,
The time of contact is VERY crucial and is something that is typically over looked.
The harder the contact and impact surface, the less time the greater the kinetic energy transfer.
This is why, typically, short power ( inch power, fa jing, whatever) is applied to the head.

How much impact we can transfer to a target with our strikes is based on how well we strike ( if all else is equal) because the power we generate is not always All transfered to the target.
There has to be quite a bit of "perfect" conditons for all the energy to be transfered and typically that doesn't happen in a real fight.

So we must, to begin with, generate as much force as possible.
Don't get over "physics" on it because physics has to be tailored to biomechanics.
Suffice to say that, for a "powerful" strike one must:
Apply as much mass as possible.
Accelerate as much as possible.
Decelerate as least as possible.
Follow through enough.
Make contact "just" enough to penetrate the target.

Agreed on everything there, and to look at it another way...do you think that all punches are capable of the same power coming from the same individual? I.E. We can agree that the jab is not equal in power to the cross, hook, or uppercut, in power generation. If that is the case, it establishes the idea that non-boxing punches (E.G. gung fu punches) might also have varying degrees of power as well.

You and Joy were saying...the power effect felt by the focus mitt holder may not be indicitive of the actual transfer of force (like when I hit the heavy bag that was against the wall and it felt equal there as opposed to the mitt). I thought about that when I originally was mulling things over, but then started thinking that there's no reason for it to differ either...force of impact is force of impact. It exists in the same realm of reality and thus is susceptible to the same rules of physics (though you're right its not exactly the same given that we're not simply "objects"). That's when I started thinking that it was the pad holder that could be making things feel different in terms of feedback.

People have been hit with punches that didn't damage the exterior, but the interior. Just like in car accidents or any other type of tremedous blunt trauma. Houdini died of a ruptured liver because he was showing his "iron stomach" and let some young guy punch him in his body a punch of times. No gung fu there, just a good strong punch (or punches). I give you that example to show that it's not gung fu or boxing that really makes the difference, its just force and the person's ability to transfer it.

That's why I look at things from non-style perspective. I put everything on an equal playing field regardless of the origin. Punch to punch...which has more power. If we can determine why, we can also determine how to increase the power within the confines of the human construct.

[YungChun]

Make contact "just" enough to penetrate the target.

Not sure if this is enough penetration for purposes of WCK...because as I see it we are looking to break structure which is aided by this a type of deep penetrating force, aka time on target....ok no jokes..