Strongest punch?

[SAAMAG]

hate to sound like a nerd, but force does not equal mass x velocity ^2

force = mass x acceleration

acceleration is the change in velocity over time (v- v0)/t, or the first derivative dv/dt of velocity

i think you are thinking of

KE = 1/2 x m x v^2

Kinetic energy equals one half mass times velocity squared.

So Kinetic Energy is directly proportional to mass and to velocity.

Thanks for the correction NERD I was thinking m/s^2, but incorrectly replaced it with V instead of A. Would the impluse equation have worked better in this scenario since we're trying to measure the force at the moment of impact I wonder?

But moving on to what you were saying about Sanjuro's post, you believe in the equation of M x A that pushes are resultant of high M and low A and vice versa for more "piercing" hits? You don't think that someone punching slower could still achieve that "pop"?

[Hendrik]

Thanks for the correction NERD I was thinking m/s^2, but incorrectly replaced it with V instead of A. Would the impluse equation have worked better in this scenario since we're trying to measure the force at the moment of impact I wonder?

But moving on to what you were saying about Sanjuro's post, you believe in the equation of M x A that pushes are resultant of high M and low A and vice versa for more "piercing" hits? You don't think that someone punching slower could still achieve that "pop"?

Believe it or not these stuffs doesnt model the strike because the body is a distributive system.

Also, IMHO, I was using this stuffs trying to model the strike for decades.... but at last when I was taught how to generate different type of jin, these physics stuffs are really a wasting of time.

Those who knows knows these type of physics doesnt do much, those who doesnt know how to generate the power will get even confuse.


power generation is not that complex, it is only a matter of globa or localization generation. it is centric or decenterization. how to accelerate, how to make use of momentum, how to use friction.

The issue is whether the body and mind has been condition to do the job.
Qi medirians were us in the training to aid the path of delivery or transmission.
It goes back to the bottom line of does one have a working process and get coach to develop it.


again, if I understood what people mean by pivoting as in other post, that type of pivoting doesnt work in generate heavy power. By pivoting one already is not effective in using the body momentum. and it locked the heck out of one's movement or agility or balance.

Any prove that pivoting is not the it in 1850s?
In the Yik Kam kuen kuit, as I post it in the Kuen kuit post, one of the first 5 stanza says, left leg trip up has an aiding or counter effect, right leg the recoil power is reversely store.
It uses the legs generate and to propell the force vectors to the target in the same instant. Think of it similar to a rotating wheel. it doesnt pivot but rotate. and it is that rotation generate the thrust forward.


It is a very dynamic non preconditioning type of power generation instead of pivoting where one leg needs to be secure.

No pivoting but in fact both legs are used as a couple for power generation in the same instant. It is very scientific even in today's view. Thus, YJKYM is not what most stereo type think it is. It is practically sit on a set of wheels instead of root. if one root , one is nail dead. the flow is stop. there is where the grapper take you down.




There are lots of stuffs which in general we dont think that way, so we missed it.

Some might again, start to attack me here on being secretive.....mystify.....


Well, my bottom line is simple, I am a buddhist, I look at this stuffs as an art which I love to investigating or playing with;

I dont reveal more because if others use what I reveal to hurt others it is my karma. and it is not good to provide heavy weapon to for others to hurt each others.

So, what i can say is there are lots of stuffs we WCner has missed compare with the red boat time. There is no secret or mysterious....etc. It is only about working process and process for different purpose intended. The ancestors got them and they are fading away. modern logical thinking doesnt lead one there because the thinking pattern are different. and also we dont train it anymore.

Just my 2cents.













---------------------------------------


We may never love like this again
Don't stop the flow
We can't let go
We may never love like this again
And touch the sky
Though we may try


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F09VDTRVcYg

[SAAMAG]

Believe it or not these stuffs doesnt model the strike because the body is a distributive system.

Also, IMHO, I was using this stuffs trying to model the strike for decades.... but at last when I was taught how to generate different type of jin, these physics stuffs are really a wasting of time.

Those who knows knows these type of physics doesnt do much, those who doesnt know how to generate the power will get even confuse.

Physics is a science of studying the relationship between matter and energy. There is no mysticism to it and it is quantifiable and measurable. I'd say that it provides better insight into things where older studies could not (i.e. jing).

This was a comparison of relative power generation between two linear (straight) punches that are used for the same reason--to try and disable the opponent. Nothing esoteric about, nothing religious.

But you're right it's not that complicated, I've got my own theories and explainations for it...this thread is to create conversation on the subject to see how other people view it.

BTW...I don't know if you mentioned what you felt your strongest punch was? By that I mean the one that issues the greatest amount of kinetic transfer.

[YungChun]

Thanks for the correction NERD I was thinking m/s^2, but incorrectly replaced it with V instead of A. Would the impluse equation have worked better in this scenario since we're trying to measure the force at the moment of impact I wonder?

But moving on to what you were saying about Sanjuro's post, you believe in the equation of M x A that pushes are resultant of high M and low A and vice versa for more "piercing" hits? You don't think that someone punching slower could still achieve that "pop"?

The body is very complex, the interaction of the mind and body, so many variations on use of the muscles, bones, and so on.. Modern Science is great but it may not yet be revealing all the elements in play IMO.

A push accelerates post contact, a strike pre-contact.

Hmmm can the two be merged...?

[SAAMAG]

The body is very complex, the interaction of the mind and body, so many variations on use of the muscles, bones, and so on.. Modern Science is great but it may not yet be revealing all the elements in play IMO.

A push accelerates post contact, a strike pre-contact.

Hmmm can the two be merged...?

The body in my opinion is more a machine than some esoteric being. It's got bones for structure, muscles for movement, and all of it is designed to move in a certain way. There is a defined process that it uses that can be explicitely explained. I mean we know the body down to the chemical level. If there was anything else don't you think there'd be evidence of it? I'd like to believe that we have some sort of unexplained power to harness the energy around us...but the facts simply don't support that yet. Even Chinese explanations are only theory without any hard proof.

But in terms of the combining of the two types of forces...I wouldn't think there'd be a way to combine them. I mean a push is a push. It's not a forceful contact with that sharpness that a strike would have. I alwayS gauge my strikes on the heavy for example by the sound it makes and how the bag folds upon impact. If the bag just swings...I PUSHED it. If the bag folds...I HIT it. Each impact type sounds disctinctly different. Of course the goal is to fold the bag.

[YungChun]

The body in my opinion is more a machine than some esoteric being.

Well for me this is an oversimplification, although I don't know what you mean by 'some esoteric being'..

It's got bones for structure, muscles for movement, and all of it is designed to move in a certain way. There is a defined process that it uses that can be explicitely explained.

I don't know about that. I normally would agree for the most part but there is still more we don't know in science than we do know, especially when you introduce the mental factor, the mind.

A mother lifts a bus up to save her son.. Sure we can explain it, we think, but is there more to be gleaned from such examples than an explanation and a shrug?

I tend to see things more open ended, in some areas we are just scratching the surface, like in quantum physics, and we see the mind playing a huge role in what reality really means..

If there was anything else don't you think there'd be evidence of it? I'd like to believe that we have some sort of unexplained power to harness the energy around us...but the facts simply don't support that yet. Even Chinese explanations are only theory without any hard proof.

I am not about the chi... However the body is not a slingshot.. It's about a billion times more complex.. and while we can scan the body and monitor it's motion and measure impacts, in a certain way I bet that over say the next 5 years we will continue to learn more despite that it may seem we know it all....

But in terms of the combining of the two types of forces...I wouldn't think there'd be a way to combine them. I mean a push is a push.

A strike that keeps going delaying deceleration, would also 'push' ....To me this could be a combination but I am just thinking out loud.

[YungChun]

So is it speed or acceleration?

I can place my hand on someone and then pulse it and it will hurt.. Yet what was the velocity? Was it a strike or a push..?

[HumbleWCGuy]

hate to sound like a nerd, but force does not equal mass x velocity ^2

force = mass x acceleration

acceleration is the change in velocity over time (v- v0)/t, or the first derivative dv/dt of velocity

i think you are thinking of

KE = 1/2 x m x v^2

Kinetic energy equals one half mass times velocity squared.

So Kinetic Energy is directly proportional to mass and to velocity.



Sanjuros explanation of "momentum based" impacts have high mass but low velocity. these are more push-like

His other explanation of fa jing are high velocity and low mass impacts

i would recommend high velocity because that is what is going to penetrate your target and hurt more


So to hit hard you really need to maximize velocity and mass AT THE TIME OF IMPACT. Does not matter how far your punch has travelled. Only the time of impact matters. Thats all there is to it.

WC attempts to maximize mass by using throwing the entire body into the strike, using the strongest muscles in the body, the legs, to propel it

WC attempts to maximize velocity by doing what any other style does and thats hitting as fast as possible.

WC attempts to be efficient in terms of energy delivery through body structure, so that as much kinetic energy is transferred into your target and minimal energy is "lost" due to recoil.

You are correct about the KE fromula. I was about to post the same thing. Anyway, I think that KE is the best way to discribe strikes Force (F=M*A or angular MV^2/R), momentum (P=M*V), or impulse which measures a change in force over time can be represented as a change in momentum.
[/QUOTE]

For the drama I am going to put this in caps.
STRIKING IS ABOUT MASS BUT EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY SPEED. The KE formula KE = 1/2*M*V^2 best represents what is important about striking, SPEED. Bruce Lee is one of the best examples of a guy with not much mass who could generate "power" by generating much more speed than the average fighter. Proper striking is about kinetic linking which increases both the mass and velocity of a strike.

[Pacman]

Thanks for the correction NERD I was thinking m/s^2, but incorrectly replaced it with V instead of A. Would the impluse equation have worked better in this scenario since we're trying to measure the force at the moment of impact I wonder?

But moving on to what you were saying about Sanjuro's post, you believe in the equation of M x A that pushes are resultant of high M and low A and vice versa for more "piercing" hits? You don't think that someone punching slower could still achieve that "pop"?

im not looking a mxa

i am actually only looking at 1/2mv^2

a slow punch can theoretically do a lot of damage, but would need a lot more mass behind it than a human body. imagine a large truck moving slowly and running into you.

[SAAMAG]

im not looking a mxa

i am actually only looking at 1/2mv^2

a slow punch can theoretically do a lot of damage, but would need a lot more mass behind it than a human body. imagine a large truck moving slowly and running into you.

I'd rather not imagine that, thank you. But I get what you're trying to say. For a given mass--speed is the factor that we should be trying to work on. For that, one must be relaxed in movement.

So then lets talk about speed! Can it be increased? Is it limited by genetics? What ways are there that are PROVEN to increase one's speed performance? Obviously repition is one thing (muscle memory). Is there anything else?

[YungChun]

Seems to me that time to speed (A) is also key, especially in a short distance.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I'd rather not imagine that, thank you. But I get what you're trying to say. For a given mass--speed is the factor that we should be trying to work on. For that, one must be relaxed in movement.

So then lets talk about speed! Can it be increased? Is it limited by genetics? What ways are there that are PROVEN to increase one's speed performance? Obviously repition is one thing (muscle memory). Is there anything else?

Both mass and velocity are important. I don't know anything about you so I will just say this. If you ever get into tremendous shape to fight or have been, you will notice that correct punches will bring to bear every bit of your mass that you can muster in any given direction with as much velocity as possible at the point of impact. This is accomplished via kinetic linking.

The one caveat that I have to make is that correct punching isn't just about maximum mas and velocity at the point of impact. Correct punching is also about executing punches in a way that gives you a legitimate opportunity to hit. As I said, a strong puncher could knock down a door with a cross but it is nearly impossible to hit someone with a cross that is thrown that hard because the delivery takes too much total time.

[YungChun]

As I said, a strong puncher could knock down a door with a cross but it is nearly impossible to hit someone with a cross that is thrown that hard because the delivery takes too much total time.

If faster is 'harder' then how is 'harder' slower/longer?

[HumbleWCGuy]

If faster is 'harder' then how is 'harder' slower/longer?

A door buster cross is faster and brings more mass to the point of impact, but it has a telegraphed delivery.


Edit:
I believe that physics only tells part of the story as far as what the best blow is. The rest has to come from knowledge of human performance of the striker and the struck along with understanding of what the strike is intended to hit.

[Hendrik]

The body is very complex, the interaction of the mind and body, so many variations on use of the muscles, bones, and so on.. Modern Science is great but it may not yet be revealing all the elements in play IMO.

A push accelerates post contact, a strike pre-contact.

Hmmm can the two be merged...?

1. yes. one doesnt want to oversimplified the issues.

2, the so called over simplified modern science model is an analytical model. anyone knows those type of model is trouble when using it for a systemic issue such as the body which is a distributive system which means every parts has its own "life" and cannot be model in an Average manner as a "dead" rock in the lab.