Wing Chun and Tai Chi Chuan

[Hardwork108]

Hardwork108
May be you are right
I am at the beginning of WCK and beginning to train another art can be confusing. But in this instance I cant decide which level I train WCK is enough for beginning a new thing?
What do you think?

That is not an easy question. Personally speaking I would wait until completion of Biu Jee to even think about starting a new system. This way most of the Wing Chun system will be "imprinted" in your mind and body.

There are kung fu masters out there who are masters in more than one system. However, it is my understanding that they started by completing and mastering one style before going to study the next one. I am sure that there are exceptions to this but the logical way would be to complete or at least almost compete and then go to another.

I do realize that you say that you are considering Tai chi as a way of improving or helping your Wing Chun studies but then you will also need to consider how best to use your limited time. For example, one may ask why train WC 3 times a week and then perhaps Tai Chi twice, if you can train WC 5 times a week which would probably be more beneficial in the long term?

Of course if it were a case of your Wing Chun sifu having knowledge of Tai Chi and only prescribing exercises that were to be relevant to your Wing Chun then perhaps you could get away with mixing the two.

To be honest though, if you are lucky enough to have a genuine Wing Chun sifu then you will be ahead of most people who practice Wing Chun in the Western world. That means sticking to Wing Chun and training hard will be all you would need to make your kung fu powerful.

EDIT: It is also worth mentioning that Wing Chun's Internal training will also train your "Chi". The practice of Siu Lim Tao, the first form, is on one level dedicated to this, but again, you will need to train in genuine Wing Chun methodology.

[wtxs]

To Ghaldszar ...

Here are the bottom lines.

1, Taiji Chuan alone, There are atleast 4 different types of power generation based on the lineage (IE Chen, Yang, Wu...) range from totally let go to using the medirians.

2, WCK alone, there are more then a few different types of power geneartion based on the lineage (IE pivoting, non pivoting, different pivoting....) range from totally rigid and heavy rely on stance and muscular like Hung Gar to extremely dynamic as the Emei 12 Zhuang.


Now, each of these power generation type is influencing or determining the application methods. IE: one drive a 4 wheel drive different then a front wheel drive or reel wheel drive.

These creates hundreds of differences in applications combinations which suit one lineage but not suit other lineage.
there is no way for even a senior martial artists to sort these out if he is not train up to an advance state with the key sifus of the lineage to know and handle the key pro and con or even mistake in these lineages.

It is hopeless and a total mess for any junior or even senior martial artists to speculate and makes believe due to one can mimic some move in WCK or Taijichuan one knows the art.


So, why the heck one wants to get into these confusion and going no where but mess and chaotic creation deal of learning taijichuan for WingChunkuen?


The fastest way one can really learn an art great is to go to the best of the best in that lineage and let him coach one if the best of the best willing to teach. So, that get into the Bai Si which I always mention in my post but most take it wrongly.


Forget about mind speculation, objective thinking, critical thinking.... all those thinking and thinking, reading and reading books..... if one want the art, get a master to coach one. otherwise it is cheating oneself.

In your current level of training, please do follow Hendrik's advise. His logic and reasoning applies in your situation.

If you really wants to learn Tai Chi concurrently with your WC, try to find an teacher that is knowledgeable with the combative side of Tai Chi ... good luck ...

[Hendrik]

EDIT: It is also worth mentioning that Wing Chun's Internal training will also train your "Chi". The practice of Siu Lim Tao, the first form, is on one level dedicated to this, but again, you will need to train in genuine Wing Chun methodology.

Lots of Chi Chi Chi Chi being said and lots of Siu Lim Tao Chi Chi chi.


You know, lots of fantasy.

We know by evidence in 1850 there is Chi cultivation in SLT.

But then, so, could anyone tell me HOW?

I said fantasy because there is no HOW but keep saying Chi Chi chi Chi like mantra.
It is not going to get you anywhere. and live alone, figthing and combat.

What is Chi ?

How is one going to get it?

Until that resolve, forget about it.



http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/show...6&postcount=61





Your heart, what confuses it so?
perhaps, Ms Wing Chun needs to keep singing this song to the some WCners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRe4D...eature=related

[Hardwork108]

We know by evidence in 1850 there is Chi cultivation in SLT.

But then, so, could anyone tell me HOW?

I have been taught to do this by practicing SLT (and other qigong, including night time practice) without a thinking trail in a correct and relaxed manner. I am still trying to get to the no mind stage and I am using the advice you gave me in another thread (thanks again for that).

I am using relaxed Dantien breathing. In time i have felt energy/tingling and heat. I am still at beginning stages so I can't say too much.

[bennyvt]

sorry man just because you were an athlete doesn't nean you know anything about learning and the way to teach people. And if you thought that you would take a step and turn it into how to be a better fighter why exactly would you even advise tai chi.

[Scott R. Brown]

sorry man just because you were an athlete doesn't nean you know anything about learning and the way to teach people. And if you thought that you would take a step and turn it into how to be a better fighter why exactly would you even advise tai chi.

Hi Dipsh!t,

I have taught martial arts, yoga and tumbling, coached swimmers, and trained athletes and the general public in weight training, so nice try mouthing off about what you know nothing about! I have also trained in Tai Chi and about half a dozen other martial arts over 37 years, but not WC!

So before you spout off about what you know nothing about to someone who has done it ALL first hand and knows for sure it is okay to train in multiple skills sets at the same time because he has done it and taught it to others, learn to do something yourself and become an expert in it first before you think to educate your betters!

Addendum:

Oh Yeah...just because you do not understand any of the martial aspects of Tai Chi doesn't mean no one else does!!

[Hendrik]

Hi Dipsh!t,

I have taught martial arts, yoga and tumbling, coached swimmers, and trained athletes and the general public in weight training, so nice try mouthing off about what you know nothing about! I have also trained in Tai Chi and about half a dozen other martial arts over 37 years, but not WC!

So before you spout off about what you know nothing about to someone who has done it ALL first hand and knows for sure it is okay to train in multiple skills sets at the same time because he has done it and taught it to others, learn to do something yourself and become an expert in it first before you think to educate your betters!

Addendum:

Oh Yeah...just because you do not understand any of the martial aspects of Tai Chi doesn't mean no one else does!!

Sorry to Say 37 years means nothing for WCK,

In Wing Chun, we said,
learning has no junior rank or senior ranking by years of learning, those who has mastered the art is the teacher.



If you seriously want to discuss in a this WCK and Taiji chuan topic.

Share with us your 37 years of Tai Chi....experience.


1, what style of Tai Chi do you practicing? Who is your sifu?

2, What is the characteristics of your Tai Chi Jin/power? and what is the principle of cultivate it? and how? How deep the penetration can it do and have you tested it with other fighter such as Kyokushin, MT...?

3, What have you attain on Qi cultivation according to Tai Chi ? From heat up the Dan Dien to circuilate the Ren and Du medirians to flowing down to the K1.....ect.

[Scott R. Brown]

Sorry to Say 37 years means nothing for WCK,

Your opinion is irrelevant and insignificant since you have not crossed hands with me and know nothing about me or my training! On the other hand I have seen your standing Chi Kung and it is laughable!

Share with us your 37 years of Tai Chi....experience.

After you!

1, what style of Tai Chi do you practicing? Who is your sifu?

I recognize no Sifu!

2, What is the characteristics of your Tai Chi Jin/power? and what is the principle of cultivate it? and how? How deep the penetration can it do and have you tested it with other fighter such as Kyokushin, MT...?

Come here and I'll be happy to show you!

3, What have you attain on Qi cultivation according to Tai Chi ? From heat up the Dan Dien to circuilate the Ren and Du medirians to flowing down to the K1.....ect.

Been there, done that, NOT impressed!

[Scott R. Brown]

I give you a chance, and your response really show who you are.

Quit acting like a chicken sh!t Hendrik by posting and then deleting your posts! You have done that at least twice in the past two days. It reflects your passive/aggressive personality! If you wish to avoid confrontation think it through before you post, preview your post, and/or pause to regain self-control of your emotions before you post.

I understand it is difficult to be constantly challenged, but you bring it on yourself!

I have given you many chances in the past to show who you are and you always come out looking gutless.

If you want to know my Martial Arts history, look on my profile and go back and look at my 10 years of posts on this BB and figure it out for yourself.

You have not answered ONE question of the 50 or so questions I have posed to you in the time you have been on this board, yet once again you expect from others what you cannot do yourself.

I have little respect for you, because all you can do is criticize others while avoiding the direct questioning of your theses.

How arrogant of you to expect another to answer you questions when you refuse to answer the questions of others.

If you wish to be treated with more respect, I recommend you behave towards others with more respect yourself!

[anerlich]

You rock, buddy.

[Scott R. Brown]

you rock, buddy.

..........

[bennyvt]

Stick your dip **** up your arse.
I haven't said anything about my background and yet you take the assumption that I know nothing about teaching. I had a teacher that once said "anyone that makes a statistic using them self is an idiot." The thread was about if tai chi would help his VT. As you haven't done VT you would know **** all about it wouldn't you. You are obviously doing a push for tai chi as you do it,great. Most VT people will say that we teach simple ways of blocking and striking. Having two ways to block the same punch will only lead to increased reflex time. Once you have acheived a certain level what you do is your concern.
How many swimmer do you teach to do running to improve their swimming. So you think specializing in one way would not decrease the time needed to get the action reflex. How many people have you taught.
You seem to have some good stuff with all the chi, airy fairy crap but if you want to talk about VT then I would suggest actually learning it. Oh by the way I have actually done chen style tai chi. Not seriuosly but hey you haven't done VT and I have atleast learnt abit of tai chi. So obviuosly you would know more.

[Iron-Man]

Quit acting like a chicken sh!t Hendrik by posting and then deleting your posts! You have done that at least twice in the past two days. It reflects your passive/aggressive personality! If you wish to avoid confrontation think it through before you post, preview your post, and/or pause to regain self-control of your emotions before you post.

I understand it is difficult to be constantly challenged, but you bring it on yourself!

I have given you many chances in the past to show who you are and you always come out looking gutless.

If you want to know my Martial Arts history, look on my profile and go back and look at my 10 years of posts on this BB and figure it out for yourself.

You have not answered ONE question of the 50 or so questions I have posed to you in the time you have been on this board, yet once again you expect from others what you cannot do yourself.

I have little respect for you, because all you can do is criticize others while avoiding the direct questioning of your theses.

How arrogant of you to expect another to answer you questions when you refuse to answer the questions of others.

If you wish to be treated with more respect, I recommend you behave towards others with more respect yourself!

Ha ha what a nice read to come back to ! Dont be too harsh on Hendrick as his aggression has a tendency to go too Internal sometimes, otherwise he may leave this forum again only to return as one of the many Pokemon Warriors.................then you will be sorry !

[Scott R. Brown]

I haven't said anything about my background and yet you take the assumption that I know nothing about teaching.

You are the one who made the assumptions d!ckhead! All I said was you don't know me and then went on to explain my background to you to demonstrate there is a foundation, based in experience, for my comments.

It is a reasonable argument procedure to establish a basis for ones conclusions.

However, your comments display a clear lack of understanding, so I draw the conclusion that you don't have any idea what you are talking about.

So far you have written nothing that adequately refutes my conclusion! You clearly do not know what you are talking about and you are arguing with your better!

Live with it and move on!

I had a teacher that once said "anyone that makes a statistic using them self is an idiot." The thread was about if tai chi would help his VT. As you haven't done VT you would know **** all about it wouldn't you.

You are apparently so foolish you do not even understand your teacher's saying! Using qualifications to explain one's perspective on a particular topic is NOT using a statistic you dolt! It is explaining one's background in order to establish a basis/foundation for their comments!

To blindly repeat an axiom one does NOT understand or even apply correctly makes one a WHAT?

I know a little bit about WC, not any of the super-duper secret magic decoder ring stuff, but enough to know it isn't anything special.

I have yet to learn, observe or practice a MA that was all that impressive. Not one of them is all that difficult to learn or practice. If it is for you then you are a bit inept and quite young in your training.

I hadn’t said anything about my background in my previous posts and yet you made the assumption that I know nothing about teaching!

Who’s the idiot here?

You are obviously doing a push for tai chi as you do it,great.

I thought we weren't supposed to make assumptions, dipsh!T?

No...I am NOT making a pitch for Tai Chi, I am making a pitch for learning more than ONE MA!!!! I didn't bring up Tai Chi, the original poster did! If he had asked about WC and Muay Thai, or Judo, or Ba Gua, I would have answered the same!

What are you 15 years old?

Most VT people will say that we teach simple ways of blocking and striking. Having two ways to block the same punch will only lead to increased reflex time. Once you have acheived a certain level what you do is your concern.

That does not make it the best way to learn to defend yourself dipsh!t!

It is unfortunate that some WC teachers teach that way. Those that do are ignorant. That is their burden to carry.

If you blindly follow what you do not understand, which you have already demonstrated a talent for, that is your burden.

Just because some people teach that way does not mean it is the most effective way to teach, it means foolish people blindly follow tradition without understanding anything else because they are unable to think for themselves.

How many swimmer do you teach to do running to improve their swimming. So you think specializing in one way would not decrease the time needed to get the action reflex. How many people have you taught.

You ARE 15 aren’t you? Some swimmers DO run as part of their training program, and YES dips!t, many lift weights too!!!! I did both myself when I was a state class swimmer in high school and some Olympic swimmers do the same!

You really know nothing about training so I would advise you to stick to what you know best, like sucking off your teacher's teat!

You seem to have some good stuff with all the chi, airy fairy crap but if you want to talk about VT then I would suggest actually learning it. Oh by the way I have actually done chen style tai chi. Not seriuosly but hey you haven't done VT and I have atleast learnt abit of tai chi. So obviuosly you would know more.

Training is training, it doesn't matter what one learns. The basic training principles are the same. If you want to teach or learn only one way to do a strike, parry or block, good for you. Others are more practical and understand, real life is unpredicatable. You can't say to your attacker, "Wait! I don't know how to counter that attack! Please attack me <this> way because I only learned ONE way to respond!"

Practicing it and understanding it are two different things young man! You’ve got a looooooong way to go before you can compete with the big boys….I would quit while you are ahead!

[Hendrik]

Stick your dip **** up your arse.
I haven't said anything about my background and yet you take the assumption that I know nothing about teaching. I had a teacher that once said "anyone that makes a statistic using them self is an idiot." The thread was about if tai chi would help his VT. As you haven't done VT you would know **** all about it wouldn't you. You are obviously doing a push for tai chi as you do it,great. Most VT people will say that we teach simple ways of blocking and striking. Having two ways to block the same punch will only lead to increased reflex time. Once you have acheived a certain level what you do is your concern.
How many swimmer do you teach to do running to improve their swimming. So you think specializing in one way would not decrease the time needed to get the action reflex. How many people have you taught.

You seem to have some good stuff with all the chi, airy fairy crap but if you want to talk about VT then I would suggest actually learning it.

Oh by the way I have actually done chen style tai chi. Not seriuosly but hey you haven't done VT and I have atleast learnt abit of tai chi. So obviuosly you would know more.

Just my very humble opinion,



In Term of VT and Taiji, Solid technical speaking,

I throw a VT Mun Sau or Asking hand or Reach for the Buddha hand, at him to observe him;
look at his over react response posts which show his kung fu.


Not a Taiji Guy either, no balance mind and body.


In the Taiji classical, it said, hero is invincible because the hero knows others and others doesnt know the hero. Strike before knows others is not taiji.

based on the above classic, a Taiji guy will not chasing around noise or self speculation;
but enter into silence, cover oneself, and observe and read the situation like an eagle before strike instead of squirrel which react jumping around. Similar to we in VT, we cover ourselve behind Mun Sau and ask and observe.


In cantonese, the over react behavior is called Chaam Pat Tzu Hei or cant sink one's chi. or have no emotional management. or no samadhi or stillness.

In fact, one of the reason of standing in YJKYM is to train Chaam Tzu Hei or can sink one's chi or have the patient and stability and wait.


There goes on how is his theory on NO BEINGNESS, ZEN, DAO....etc and his cultivation.


He doesnt practice what he preaches.






In term of cultivation,

He must be the Wises Sage or Buddha which come and teach me , the ignorance person , a lesson on how can I improve myself.

In that case I really respect and appreciate his teaching.


See, everything has two side in this duality world, and be able to see clear the two side and doesnt get carry away is the non attachment of Zen. and I always can learn different things from different people because I am no Buddha and in fact I have lots of sifu and sifus and still bow to more sifus.


I always like the Kyokushin Way, between two bows, one practices the best skill one has.
Thus, the Bow is for respect everyone since everyone is equal, however, at the time to test skill it is purely technical and nothing personal, because skill is skill, kungfu is kungfu, attainment is attainment, that got nothing to do with not respecting other, in fact using the real kung fu is respecting the other party. Just my way of viewing the art.



VT and TaijiChuan, it is all about how advance one's cultivation. NOt about what training path one uses. and it is a wasting of time comparing this training path and that training path such as one compare which door is the best to get into a stadium.

One use the door to enter the stadium, and not comparing every door and get confuse and ultimately stuck and not be able to get into the stadium.

And to enter the stadium from different specific door in the fastest way, one needs a sifu or a tour guide to brought one into the stadium.

It is extremely foolish to get stuck infront of the stadium and keep thinking one is within the stadium.

Thus, one needs an attain sifu with the lineage's transmission, why wasting time outside the stadium?

Get Stuck in the wall between two doors is the worse one wants to get into,