Bak mei?

[soulfist]

Geng Jak Ging starts at the very foundation and doesnt need a specific form to develop it. There seems to be little to no concrete knowledge about Mang Fu Chut Lum and thus people attach things like that to it.

Train and understand the "4 ends" and "6 forces" and you will understand not only Bak Mei but kung fu. Its not about taking the chi to the furthest points from the dantien, its about getting the chi to leave the body! 4 ends is about propagating chi to the 4 conduits for that purpose. 2 ends of the spine (top and botton) and 2 ends of the spinal branches (hands and feet). Think about it and you will disagree, do it and you will see that its true. Theory must be derived from proper practice and dedication!

[TAO YIN]

Soulfist,

Excellent post! What is Meng Fu Chut Lum for though? If all these forms develop Geng Jak Ging, albeit in different ways, what makes them any different besides physical movement? What does Gau Bo Tui develop that Jik Bo doesn't? What does Sup Baat develop that Gau Bo Tui doesn't? What does Meng Fu develop that Sup Baat doesnt? That is besides different physical movements for all the forms...Of course the physical movements are going to make the body react differently due to how each form was designed. That isn't my question though.

What does Meng Fu actually develop that makes it so secretive, special, and the like? What is Meng Fu for?

If proper kinematics occurs with each move in every form, then each move would be correct. The physical differences simply occur because of the physics behind each movement. The mind's intent now, is a whole other story...

Does Meng Fu Chut Lum do something that overcomes the laws of physics or something???

[soulfist]

Well, Ive learned the long list of forms from my many teachers, but it wasnt until I followed a different method that it all became clear. Though its different from person to person and not written in stone my schools method (from Siu Ting Fun) follows power development over technique development with the core forms:

1) Jik Bo Biu Ji Keun = "yum yeung ging (yinyang force)" which is 2 component force.
2) Sek Si Sup Ji Keun = "sup ji ging (cross force)" which is 4 directional force of the torso.
3) Luk Ging Gau Bo Tui = "luk ging (6 force)" which is 6 directional force of the whole body, and exploring the 6 directions in single areas like the hand.
4) Sup Baat Moh Kiu Gung = "sei sau (4 ends)" which is about chi propagation and greatly softens the former material giving greater flow.
5) Ng Hang Moh Kiu Gung = "ng hang (5 elements)" which is about tendon training, but basically takes all that was learned and consolidates it better, then takes it further!

Something like that. You could develop that all with one form if you liked, but our take on the developmental aspect of Bak Mei within the curriculum is this. The other forms are for techniques... but if one does their power training properly then minimal techniques become more desirable. Theres more than enough techniques in just those 5 forms but this is simply our take on Bak Mei.

The style was founded on 3 forms anyway, and the rest were specifically made as stepping stones. Follow and master the "3 pillars of Bak Mei" using whatever stepping stones you need, and then you are doing what Jeung Lai Cheun did!

[diego]

Well, Ive learned the long list of forms from my many teachers, but it wasnt until I followed a different method that it all became clear. Though its different from person to person and not written in stone my schools method (from Siu Ting Fun) follows power development over technique development with the core forms:

1) Jik Bo Biu Ji Keun = "yum yeung ging (yinyang force)" which is 2 component force.
2) Sek Si Sup Ji Keun = "sup ji ging (cross force)" which is 4 directional force of the torso.
3) Luk Ging Gau Bo Tui = "luk ging (6 force)" which is 6 directional force of the whole body, and exploring the 6 directions in single areas like the hand.
4) Sup Baat Moh Kiu Gung = "sei sau (4 ends)" which is about chi propagation and greatly softens the former material giving greater flow.
5) Ng Hang Moh Kiu Gung = "ng hang (5 elements)" which is about tendon training, but basically takes all that was learned and consolidates it better, then takes it further!

Something like that. You could develop that all with one form if you liked, but our take on the developmental aspect of Bak Mei within the curriculum is this. The other forms are for techniques... but if one does their power training properly then minimal techniques become more desirable. Theres more than enough techniques in just those 5 forms but this is simply our take on Bak Mei.

The style was founded on 3 forms anyway, and the rest were specifically made as stepping stones. Follow and master the "3 pillars of Bak Mei" using whatever stepping stones you need, and then you are doing what Jeung Lai Cheun did!

After moving to Guangzhou, Cheung was defeated by the monk Lin Sang[10] after which the monk referred Cheung to his own teacher master Juk Faat Wan, who taught Cheung the art of Bak Mei over the next two or three years. Cheung had a background in Hakka Kuen, the martial arts of the Hakka people, from his study of Li Mung's family style and the vagrant style. Because of this, Cheung's style of Bak Mei is associated with Hakka kuen, but more strongly still with the dragon style of Lam Yiu-Kwai—who is also said to have had a background in Hakka Kuen—due to the many years Cheung and Lam spent training together.

Soulfist any idea what these three forms looked like?. I'm guessing it was mostly bridge drills and chi gong...

[soulfist]

The three pillar forms were:

1) Gau Bo Tui
2) Sup Baat Moh Kiu
3) Mang Fu Chut Lam

and one original weapon:

Wui Waan Seung Gwai - the double crutches


It was also said that years after departing from Juk Faat Wun, either Jeung Lai Cheun or one of his students returned and found the monk Lin Sang, Juk's other disciple. From him one additional or perhaps untransmitted form was learned, called Ng Ying Keun (5 animal fist).

Lung Ying is a similar shape art which weve all seen too.

Lau Man Paai (wanderers style) is hard to guess at. One of my teachers said this is the style of Sou Hat Yi (Beggar Sou) who taught the Drunken Form to Jeung. But really Ive yet to find any substantial info on this style, as it seems to be already extinct!

[kung fu fighter]

[QUOTE=soulfist;1038292]
2) Sek Si Sup Ji Keun = "sup ji ging (cross force)" which is 4 directional force of the torso.
3) Luk Ging Gau Bo Tui = "luk ging (6 force)" which is 6 directional force of the whole body, and exploring the 6 directions in single areas like the hand.
[QUOTE]

Hi soulfist,

Can you give a more insights as to how exactly the above two froces are done as well as what the purpose of them are?

thanks in advance
Nav

[Syn7]

The three pillar forms were:

1) Gau Bo Tui
2) Sup Baat Moh Kiu
3) Mang Fu Chut Lam

and one original weapon:

Wui Waan Seung Gwai - the double crutches


It was also said that years after departing from Juk Faat Wun, either Jeung Lai Cheun or one of his students returned and found the monk Lin Sang, Juk's other disciple. From him one additional or perhaps untransmitted form was learned, called Ng Ying Keun (5 animal fist).

Lung Ying is a similar shape art which weve all seen too.

Lau Man Paai (wanderers style) is hard to guess at. One of my teachers said this is the style of Sou Hat Yi (Beggar Sou) who taught the Drunken Form to Jeung. But really Ive yet to find any substantial info on this style, as it seems to be already extinct!

ng ying is taught at our school... its the second last empty hand form... right before Ferocious Tiger Exits Forest, which is the last...

the double crutches is also a bit later in the system at our school... you learn battlefield staff, broadsword and bench first...

[soulfist]

Sup Ji Ging is performed with the torso. The spine activates the vertical component and the upper and lower kua activate the horizontal component. How... you need a teacher to show you.

What is it for? First you develop skill and force in the hands. Everyone does this. Second you develop skill and force in the stance. Far fewer reach this. Third... if the stance doesnt drive the hands then theres no need to develop it. It is linked through the body, and that is where Sup Ji Ging comes in. It isnt a static posture, its a movement or San Faat (body technique) Of the people in Bak Mei Ive seen out there, the people who can actually do this fundamental component I can count on one hand!

Luk Ging is full body but can be developed in isolated areas for higher development. It is literally force in 6 directions, and the next stage in the development of Yum Yeung Ging.

What is it for? I would describe the force of a bullet fired from a pistol vs a long barreled shotgun... meaning that it reinforces and magnifies the force and precision of power.

You punch... that fist goes forward. Is there a backward motion to counterbalance it? Is there and upward and downward force to stabilize it? Is there a left and right force to enhance it? Yes, but if you think it requires no attention beyond recognition you are wrong. The perfection of the motion of the 5 secondary directions is far far more important than attention on the 1 primary direction!

[Jorge]

Sup Ji Ging is performed with the torso. The spine activates the vertical component and the upper and lower kua activate the horizontal component. How... you need a teacher to show you.

What is it for? First you develop skill and force in the hands. Everyone does this. Second you develop skill and force in the stance. Far fewer reach this. Third... if the stance doesnt drive the hands then theres no need to develop it. It is linked through the body, and that is where Sup Ji Ging comes in. It isnt a static posture, its a movement or San Faat (body technique) Of the people in Bak Mei Ive seen out there, the people who can actually do this fundamental component I can count on one hand!

Luk Ging is full body but can be developed in isolated areas for higher development. It is literally force in 6 directions, and the next stage in the development of Yum Yeung Ging.

What is it for? I would describe the force of a bullet fired from a pistol vs a long barreled shotgun... meaning that it reinforces and magnifies the force and precision of power.

You punch... that fist goes forward. Is there a backward motion to counterbalance it? Is there and upward and downward force to stabilize it? Is there a left and right force to enhance it? Yes, but if you think it requires no attention beyond recognition you are wrong. The perfection of the motion of the 5 secondary directions is far far more important than attention on the 1 primary direction!

Sifu would have me train my fast forms slow just so I could see and feel where the power was coming from and how the body works. His break downs of the body in motion completely changed my understandings. He tells me all the time to pay attention to the circles and I've found that its the lil things that make the difference. Thanks for sharing.

We also have Ng Ying. Is it only taught in China?

Bless,

Buby

[TAO YIN]

Awesome posts and topics! I was just thinking about 9 step and 18 bridges. What are these numbers for? Why is 9 step, 9 step? The character for 9 doesn't look like 9 step does it? Are there actually supposed to be 9 steps because there isn't? Do you write 9 in the air with your hands as you are doing the form? Are there 9 steps for off-balancing and dealing with footwork?

What about 18 bridges. I have heard that there are 18 bridges, 9 soft and 9 hard, all relating to the 18 points. What are the 18 points of Bak Mei? With all these numbers, the more I think about it, the more confused I am!

[diego]

Taoyin do you know nine step shape form?.

[TAO YIN]

Diego,

Yes, I know that form. Do you like that form?

[diego]

I was told when done proper the feet leave nine shape.

[Yum Cha]

9 different attack combinations, perhaps?

[Syn7]

Awesome posts and topics! I was just thinking about 9 step and 18 bridges. What are these numbers for? Why is 9 step, 9 step? The character for 9 doesn't look like 9 step does it? Are there actually supposed to be 9 steps because there isn't? Do you write 9 in the air with your hands as you are doing the form? Are there 9 steps for off-balancing and dealing with footwork?

What about 18 bridges. I have heard that there are 18 bridges, 9 soft and 9 hard, all relating to the 18 points. What are the 18 points of Bak Mei? With all these numbers, the more I think about it, the more confused I am!

i thought that before too... ur the first ive heard say it tho... funny... so true...