MMA contests: Are they truly the final test for the effectiveness of an art?

[SAAMAG]

I was talking to a friend and co-worker of mine about fighting in general. In the past I'd taught him a bit of muay thai and boxing. He saw me reading the WSL biography and asked me about the style in general.

He asked why it wasn't prevelant in MMA competitions given that its marketed as being so effective. I gave the reasons why many WC folks claim that it hasn't been successful; the idea that wing chun is made for real fighting, not sport competition, that because the rules are so restrictive that wing chun wouldn't work well in competition fighting, and etc.

He says to me, but ALL the styles in MMA competitions like the UFC are restricted by the same rules, so how is it that some are successful and some aren't? I said "GOOD QUESTION!" I said it should work and gave him some reasons as to why I thought it didn't happen yet. I further elaborated and told him to remember that people have fights, not styles. It's up to the person to understand the system and use it as a tool and not to be confined by it. Hence the idea of wing chun being a set of rules for fighting...its techniques meant to be a means to apply those rules...though other techniques could technically be used as well to achieve those same ends.

He said "well yea, I've never really seen wing chun used successfully, but I just noticed how quickly you reacted to my punches and was able to move in and do whatever, and if that was wing chun I'd like to learn a bit of that too." So next time I meet up he'll be going over the basics....

But what do you guys think about that conversation in general? What would you have told him to explain as to why some styles are successful and some are not? Do you believe that some styles are truly defective by design? Or do you believe that all have merit its just a matter of the person learning to use it effectively?

[goju]

in an mma setting its simple

not everyone likes grappling or has any desire to learn it

[Frost]

i think its a cop out to be honest, all styles should be able to abapt to the rules of MMA (or K1, sanda if you don't want to learn to grapple)

lets think about it, if we are saying that wing chun is too deadly and can't work in a restricted enviroment then that means that everytime its used on the streets people end up dead, which is plainly not the case if it were there would be law suits all over the place.

And the valetudo rules in brazil were very simple, no groin shots no eye shots that was it, (hell the early ufc allowed groin hits) why wasn't wing chun doing so well back then when the rules were so open?

and if we take the its the person not the art that works well then **** wing chun must be very unlucky as all the good fighters seem to end up in thai boxing, BJJ or boxing and no one any good goes to a wing chun class.

I would have said some people simply don't want to compete, but would have also said that some styles are successful because they are trained under pressure and thus work under pressure, and some arts are taught in a way that talks about how a fight SHOULD take place rather than how they DO take place. ANd some styles are simply more effective than others, its a hard truth but it is a truth

As for the not wanting to grapple point by goju, well wing chun hasn't made its mark in K1 or Sana has it?

[uki]

rules and regulations are are detrimental to any style of fighting... in a real fight there are no rules... fighting is for self-defense and winning whatever the cost, not satisfying someone elses politically correct ego.

[LSWCTN1]

9/10 its MONEY

people get to certain level in wck and want to teach to earn MONEY, or are often ENCOURAGED to do so...

if they get in a cage and get bashed they will forever be known as 'the guy that got beat' in the kind of circles that most wck associates itself with.

of course MMA is a test and of course wck classes contain very few actual fighters, in the western world boxing is the sport that all the ruff-n-ready kids get into. less so into muay thai and obviously BJJ is growing steadily amongst this ilk.

no one argues that boxers can fight on the street - its almost a given, but that is MORE down to their attitude PRE boxing

a very good friend of mine is the Southern Counties and Northern Counties champion at this present time, and has held the English ABA (2nd class?) title too. a d@mn good little boxer, but cannot, and does not claim to be able to, streetfight.

its just not his nature. although there are lesser boxers at his own gym who would tear him a new @rsehole in a real fight.

they are the ones that have that inbuilt aggression.

if you find a genuinly good wck school you will see that not many 'graduate' to other arts from there. however, you will find that they have 'converted' many other people from other martial arts.

its all dependant on the student and the teacher.

on a side not, my tacher says that wck is not so much about fists, he says putting gloves on limits our arsenal by at least 50%

[Frost]

9/10 its MONEY

people get to certain level in wck and want to teach to earn MONEY, or are often ENCOURAGED to do so...

if they get in a cage and get bashed they will forever be known as 'the guy that got beat' in the kind of circles that most wck associates itself with.

of course MMA is a test and of course wck classes contain very few actual fighters, in the western world boxing is the sport that all the ruff-n-ready kids get into. less so into muay thai and obviously BJJ is growing steadily amongst this ilk.

no one argues that boxers can fight on the street - its almost a given, but that is MORE down to their attitude PRE boxing

a very good friend of mine is the Southern Counties and Northern Counties champion at this present time, and has held the English ABA (2nd class?) title too. a d@mn good little boxer, but cannot, and does not claim to be able to, streetfight.

its just not his nature. although there are lesser boxers at his own gym who would tear him a new @rsehole in a real fight.

they are the ones that have that inbuilt aggression.

if you find a genuinly good wck school you will see that not many 'graduate' to other arts from there. however, you will find that they have 'converted' many other people from other martial arts.

its all dependant on the student and the teacher.

on a side not, my tacher says that wck is not so much about fists, he says putting gloves on limits our arsenal by at least 50%

I would have thought that if people wanted to make money from martial arts proving the art works in an enviroment like MMA would get them a lot of students and make them alot of money....it worked for the gracies and alot of MMA gyms

So my can't wing chun guys go and compete in tournements that allow open hand strikes? there are a few of those still, and there were alot when MMA first started up why did no wing chun guys fight then?

your friend might not be a street fighter...but i bet if called upon he could defend himself in the street.

My big question is how do we find these allusive good wing chun schools?? i know how to find a good MMA school, a good grappling school, a good boxing school because they all compete and they will have a proven track record

[m1k3]

on a side not, my tacher says that wck is not so much about fists, he says putting gloves on limits our arsenal by at least 50%

So, you’re saying that you can’t punch someone in face in the ring but you’ll be able to poke them in eye or do a palm strike to the throat when you’re not? I don’t buy it. MMA gloves aren’t that big. You can still tan, bong and pak, all of your trapping is there for you, all your elbow strikes are still valid and most of your kicks.

If you can’t do a gross motor skill under duress in the ring or cage there is no way you will pull off a fine motor skill under the stress of a street fight.

[Merryprankster]

rules and regulations are are detrimental to any style of fighting... in a real fight there are no rules... fighting is for self-defense and winning whatever the cost, not satisfying someone elses politically correct ego.

All this shows is that you don't understand competition or competitors.

[Wayfaring]

He asked why it wasn't prevelant in MMA competitions given that its marketed as being so effective.

Because WCK is 99% of the time heavy on the marketing, light on the full contact sparring?

Whereas MMA schools are almost exactly the opposite?

[Dragonzbane76]

Fighting in a cage is hands on experience, as compared to someone who say, juggles and does free-forms most of the time....

here would have been the answer I probably gave you Uki.

[KC Elbows]

Boxing and mma use gloves that allow pretty much live training of pretty much 100% of their strikes.

TMA uses gloves that allow pretty much live training of 60% of their strikes.

Why shouldn't there be a difference in the results?

As for ground, it's important, but the solution to that is obvious.

In the WC discussion, obviously striking is the issue, and I hold that you are doing an uphill battle trying to encapsulate a striking system that you don't fully train in a live manner.

In mma, most people would not consider someone who has done most of the techniques, but not live, to really know mma. TMA needs to get there.

[Frost]

Boxing and mma use gloves that allow pretty much live training of pretty much 100% of their strikes.

TMA uses gloves that allow pretty much live training of 60% of their strikes.

Why shouldn't there be a difference in the results?

As for ground, it's important, but the solution to that is obvious.

In the WC discussion, obviously striking is the issue, and I hold that you are doing an uphill battle trying to encapsulate a striking system that you don't fully train in a live manner.

In mma, most people would not consider someone who has done most of the techniques, but not live, to really know mma. TMA needs to get there.

nicely put