MMA contests: Are they truly the final test for the effectiveness of an art?

[SAAMAG]

I was talking to a friend and co-worker of mine about fighting in general. In the past I'd taught him a bit of muay thai and boxing. He saw me reading the WSL biography and asked me about the style in general.

He asked why it wasn't prevelant in MMA competitions given that its marketed as being so effective. I gave the reasons why many WC folks claim that it hasn't been successful; the idea that wing chun is made for real fighting, not sport competition, that because the rules are so restrictive that wing chun wouldn't work well in competition fighting, and etc.

He says to me, but ALL the styles in MMA competitions like the UFC are restricted by the same rules, so how is it that some are successful and some aren't? I said "GOOD QUESTION!" I said it should work and gave him some reasons as to why I thought it didn't happen yet. I further elaborated and told him to remember that people have fights, not styles. It's up to the person to understand the system and use it as a tool and not to be confined by it. Hence the idea of wing chun being a set of rules for fighting...its techniques meant to be a means to apply those rules...though other techniques could technically be used as well to achieve those same ends.

He said "well yea, I've never really seen wing chun used successfully, but I just noticed how quickly you reacted to my punches and was able to move in and do whatever, and if that was wing chun I'd like to learn a bit of that too." So next time I meet up he'll be going over the basics....

But what do you guys think about that conversation in general? What would you have told him to explain as to why some styles are successful and some are not? Do you believe that some styles are truly defective by design? Or do you believe that all have merit its just a matter of the person learning to use it effectively?

[goju]

in an mma setting its simple

not everyone likes grappling or has any desire to learn it

[Frost]

i think its a cop out to be honest, all styles should be able to abapt to the rules of MMA (or K1, sanda if you don't want to learn to grapple)

lets think about it, if we are saying that wing chun is too deadly and can't work in a restricted enviroment then that means that everytime its used on the streets people end up dead, which is plainly not the case if it were there would be law suits all over the place.

And the valetudo rules in brazil were very simple, no groin shots no eye shots that was it, (hell the early ufc allowed groin hits) why wasn't wing chun doing so well back then when the rules were so open?

and if we take the its the person not the art that works well then **** wing chun must be very unlucky as all the good fighters seem to end up in thai boxing, BJJ or boxing and no one any good goes to a wing chun class.

I would have said some people simply don't want to compete, but would have also said that some styles are successful because they are trained under pressure and thus work under pressure, and some arts are taught in a way that talks about how a fight SHOULD take place rather than how they DO take place. ANd some styles are simply more effective than others, its a hard truth but it is a truth

As for the not wanting to grapple point by goju, well wing chun hasn't made its mark in K1 or Sana has it?

[uki]

rules and regulations are are detrimental to any style of fighting... in a real fight there are no rules... fighting is for self-defense and winning whatever the cost, not satisfying someone elses politically correct ego.

[LSWCTN1]

9/10 its MONEY

people get to certain level in wck and want to teach to earn MONEY, or are often ENCOURAGED to do so...

if they get in a cage and get bashed they will forever be known as 'the guy that got beat' in the kind of circles that most wck associates itself with.

of course MMA is a test and of course wck classes contain very few actual fighters, in the western world boxing is the sport that all the ruff-n-ready kids get into. less so into muay thai and obviously BJJ is growing steadily amongst this ilk.

no one argues that boxers can fight on the street - its almost a given, but that is MORE down to their attitude PRE boxing

a very good friend of mine is the Southern Counties and Northern Counties champion at this present time, and has held the English ABA (2nd class?) title too. a d@mn good little boxer, but cannot, and does not claim to be able to, streetfight.

its just not his nature. although there are lesser boxers at his own gym who would tear him a new @rsehole in a real fight.

they are the ones that have that inbuilt aggression.

if you find a genuinly good wck school you will see that not many 'graduate' to other arts from there. however, you will find that they have 'converted' many other people from other martial arts.

its all dependant on the student and the teacher.

on a side not, my tacher says that wck is not so much about fists, he says putting gloves on limits our arsenal by at least 50%

[Frost]

9/10 its MONEY

people get to certain level in wck and want to teach to earn MONEY, or are often ENCOURAGED to do so...

if they get in a cage and get bashed they will forever be known as 'the guy that got beat' in the kind of circles that most wck associates itself with.

of course MMA is a test and of course wck classes contain very few actual fighters, in the western world boxing is the sport that all the ruff-n-ready kids get into. less so into muay thai and obviously BJJ is growing steadily amongst this ilk.

no one argues that boxers can fight on the street - its almost a given, but that is MORE down to their attitude PRE boxing

a very good friend of mine is the Southern Counties and Northern Counties champion at this present time, and has held the English ABA (2nd class?) title too. a d@mn good little boxer, but cannot, and does not claim to be able to, streetfight.

its just not his nature. although there are lesser boxers at his own gym who would tear him a new @rsehole in a real fight.

they are the ones that have that inbuilt aggression.

if you find a genuinly good wck school you will see that not many 'graduate' to other arts from there. however, you will find that they have 'converted' many other people from other martial arts.

its all dependant on the student and the teacher.

on a side not, my tacher says that wck is not so much about fists, he says putting gloves on limits our arsenal by at least 50%

I would have thought that if people wanted to make money from martial arts proving the art works in an enviroment like MMA would get them a lot of students and make them alot of money....it worked for the gracies and alot of MMA gyms

So my can't wing chun guys go and compete in tournements that allow open hand strikes? there are a few of those still, and there were alot when MMA first started up why did no wing chun guys fight then?

your friend might not be a street fighter...but i bet if called upon he could defend himself in the street.

My big question is how do we find these allusive good wing chun schools?? i know how to find a good MMA school, a good grappling school, a good boxing school because they all compete and they will have a proven track record

[Kevin73]

That is the crux of the matter. MOST MA schools are commercial schools, in which, the owner has to pay the bills. MMA attracts a certain type of person, and those gyms usually have something else there to attract other people in that helps pay the bills since the hardcore crowd isn't that large.

To use WC as an example, how many WC-ists (or any TMA for that matter) really want to be hardcore fighters? Most don't want the pain and sweat that goes with it. That is why in the early days of karate etc. Those guys could fight and trained hard to do so, those are the same types of guys that are getting into MMA now.

Most schools either have a second type of program for the hardcore guys, or they are teaching out of their garage so they can maintain quality. Look at Kajukenbo, they haven't changed their training method much since the early days, and they are not wide spread because of it. It is the dumbing down of an art that allows it to spread so fast.

[Frost]

how can you explain arts like judo, boxing and BJJ all very propular, all spread very fast and all still have to a large extend exscaped the dumbing down process?

you don't have to be a hard core fighter, but unless you spar hard then do you really think you will be able to defend yourself if the time comes, and competing is just a natural extentio of that sparring process, if someones goal is to defend themselves and theyare not testing yourself against people you do not know then i think they are deluding themselves

[sanjuro_ronin]

MMA was, and still is to a less degree, the ultimate test of a fighters skill-
No rules or very limited rules ( I fought in one match that the only rule was "respect the ref and stop when he says stop") and it allows for ALL aspects of MA to be used.
The only way to test you MA abilities is to test them in an environment that allows you to use everything ( or as close as possible) in your arsenal and see what actually works.

I started MA in 78, I started with Hung Kuen and went to Karate and Boxing when I moved to Portugal in 82, it was only in 84 that I started Judo.
Why?
I got in a friendly match with a wrestler buddy and, well, it was eye opening.
I don't like grappling but I understood that the best way to defeat someone doing it was to train in it, understand it and learn who to defeat it.
MMA gave me, like so many, a venue to test it.
Was it easy on the ego?
**** no !!
But you learned what worked and what didn't in a place that didn't cost you MORE than just your ego.

Get it?

[KC Elbows]

Up until now, most videos involving wc vs. mma have not yeilded statements about wc as a style.

Why?

If you honestly examine these vids, you will se the majority involve people who either, faced with common aggression, basic technique, and non-compliance, do no technique whatsoever, or do one or two techniques and then cease to do so in the face of opposition they aren't used to.

A fighter who, facing a setback, does nothing, is encapsulating no style whatsoever, nor common sense.

This is a result of the difficulty of training a blend of ranges, and the culture until recently in tma schools. The main way to train techniques was often form and apps. Neither adequately addresses the hidden other, the opponent's choices, nor do they provide adequate means, on their own, for developing responses and ingraining them, because conceptual knowledge only tells you what you should ingrain, it does not ingrain it for you.

Essentially, fighting is like ****ing. There are those who pay no attention to the other person's motions, who merely have their goals and no technical means to achieve them aside from untrained force. No one really admires them or enjoys the experience, and cheap victory has replaced the more substantial benefits of awareness and virtuosity. In the end, no worthwhile partner will settle for this. Paired with compliant, barely semi-skilled lessers, such people can go nowhere truly interesting.

Then there are some who know some actions and responses, adequate for their goals, and they can have good fun with the experience, and, if they are aware of their own ability, and are modest and enjoy the experience, they can pair off with equals and those with more skill.

Then, there are those with amazing skill. They have chosen to engage with others, faced a variety of skillsets and preferences, faced their shortcomings, learned to move with the other where that is best, where to take the other where that is best, and learned to admire skill and honest effort over external signifiers of the appearance of ability by knowing that the path to skill requires honest effort. Everyone wants to know what they know, everyone wants to be with them, and only the jealous begrudge them their skill. Masturbatory practices, like all the related acts, are only parts of the way they learned.

Only an idiot would suggest that the problem with the loner is that they masturbate wrong. The problem is that they fail to translate the practice into acts of mutual excitement, learn to deal with that excitement, and thus, come to be truly communicating with the other and not just losing themselves in the excitement; seeing the other's acts and spontaneously blending with them, parting from them, they utilize the angles and exertion perfectly in relation to the union.

To indict style in an issue of fighters actually responding to other fighters is like indicting masturbation in an issue of responding to a lover: it simply is not the most likely course.

What's worse, wing chun guys use wooden dummies, AND THAT'S WRONG.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Up until now, most videos involving wc vs. mma have not yeilded statements about wc as a style.

Why?

If you honestly examine these vids, you will se the majority involve people who either, faced with common aggression, basic technique, and non-compliance, do no technique whatsoever, or do one or two techniques and then cease to do so in the face of opposition they aren't used to.

A fighter who, facing a setback, does nothing, is encapsulating no style whatsoever, nor common sense.

This is a result of the difficulty of training a blend of ranges, and the culture until recently in tma schools. The main way to train techniques was often form and apps. Neither adequately addresses the hidden other, the opponent's choices, nor do they provide adequate means, on their own, for developing responses and ingraining them, because conceptual knowledge only tells you what you should ingrain, it does not ingrain it for you.

Essentially, fighting is like ****ing. There are those who pay no attention to the other person's motions, who merely have their goals and no technical means to achieve them aside from untrained force. No one really admires them or enjoys the experience, and cheap victory has replaced the more substantial benefits of awareness and virtuosity. In the end, no worthwhile partner will settle for this. Paired with compliant, barely semi-skilled lessers, such people can go nowhere truly interesting.

Then there are some who know some actions and responses, adequate for their goals, and they can have good fun with the experience, and, if they are aware of their own ability, and are modest and enjoy the experience, they can pair off with equals and those with more skill.

Then, there are those with amazing skill. They have chosen to engage with others, faced a variety of skillsets and preferences, faced their shortcomings, learned to move with the other where that is best, where to take the other where that is best, and learned to admire skill and honest effort over external signifiers of the appearance of ability by knowing that the path to skill requires honest effort. Everyone wants to know what they know, everyone wants to be with them, and only the jealous begrudge them their skill. Masturbatory practices, like all the related acts, are only parts of the way they learned.

Only an idiot would suggest that the problem with the loner is that they masturbate wrong. The problem is that they fail to translate the practice into acts of mutual excitement, learn to deal with that excitement, and thus, come to be truly communicating with the other and not just losing themselves in the excitement; seeing the other's acts and spontaneously blending with them, parting from them, they utilize the angles and exertion perfectly in relation to the union.

To indict style in an issue of fighters actually responding to other fighters is like indicting masturbation in an issue of responding to a lover: it simply is not the most likely course.

What's worse, wing chun guys use wooden dummies, AND THAT'S WRONG.

Excellent post.
So, WC = Jacking off and molesting wood.
Sounds about right.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Re: the wooden dummy.
There is nothing wrong with the wooden dummy, just as there is nothing wrong with throwing dummies and the HB.
What is wrong is doing dummy work BEFORE you do fighting.
Taking what you have learned and used effectively in fighting and applying it to thhe wooden dummy is fine, I've done it.
Taking static drills on the WD and applying it on a fight, well, you better be real freaking good !

[KC Elbows]

Arguments about style are only useful where there is evidence of the style actually in use. I don't see there being such evidence yet, and to try to smash other styles that can otherwise potentially add to mma's diversity based on people raised in a culture that prevented use of the style over conceptual understanding of what could be used will only create an orthodoxy in mma that prevents critical self improvement based on need over orthodoxy.

It is worth noting, again, that it was Americans with backgrounds in wrestling and boxing that brought tma to the West.

[KC Elbows]

Re: the wooden dummy.
There is nothing wrong with the wooden dummy, just as there is nothing wrong with throwing dummies and the HB.
What is wrong is doing dummy work BEFORE you do fighting.
Taking what you have learned and used effectively in fighting and applying it to thhe wooden dummy is fine, I've done it.
Taking static drills on the WD and applying it on a fight, well, you better be real freaking good !

There's nothing wrong with any masturbatory practice, and they usually precede copulatory ones, don't they?

My point was that apps practice must be informed by fight practice, but usually, where it exists, this practice comes from the teacher, not the student. For me, it was Mrs. Debois. She taught social studies.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For me, it was Mrs. Debois. She taught social studies.

This has to do with your masturbatory views?