MMA contests: Are they truly the final test for the effectiveness of an art?

[KC Elbows]

While i can appreciate the masturbating and copulating analogy to wing chun training, I'm not touching that with my ten-foot pole.

However, the idea that the style doesn't work because of the gloves and becuase it doesn't allow for maiming techniques doesn't really float in my opinion either.

I never said that. I said, and I gave as evidence the films of fights, that even the remaining portion of the system after maiming is not being used in any example because of an inability, but not a necessary one, to train them live.

We all accept that gloves allow for more live training of punches.

There is no reason that chops and palm strikes should be seen any different. None.

The issue with the latter two is merely no product to allow for this on the market, but this is a minor thing, the fact that such padding helps train punches live is true, and so this carries over to the other two.

Now, if the bulk of your strikes are punches, chops, and strikes, and aliveness matters, then you are shortchanging yourself if you train one of the three with aliveness when you could do all three.

Further, if aliveness matters, then training that way, you will increasingly be far more capable with punches than the other two, and emphasize them far more than the original style intended, while the other two will lag in efficiency.

There is no good argument that such a methodology will necessarily lead to a reasonable representation of the original style, if aliveness matters, which I think we all believe it does.

The more you train this way, in answer to your question regarding whether more effort is needed, the more this will be the case.

If aliveness is important, then training all reasonable aspects(rulling out the antisocial stuff that doesn't translate well) is essential, and, with the current gloves, it cannot reasonably be done with a partner, so we may have to improvise.

Now, we all can say "hey, I use chops in sparring," but we all know they have to be ratcheted down to a point we are unwilling to ratchet down punches, and both for good reason, one because we need punches to be realistic, and the other because we know, without pads, realistic chops will hurt each other.

In this, the solution is probably the same solution we use for punches, but lacking this, how live is our training of an important percentage of our system's striking, and thus, how much can we claim that we encapsulate our system if we train this way, much less if we train more this way?

Now, if I saw a wing chun vs. mma where a guy does more than stand there, or more than a move or two and then face real opposition that leads to stopping doing anything well before it really would be over, I'd talk about the problem of the style, but not doing anything is a lack of trained response, not a presence of style, and the mma response is the need for aliveness, for realistic training.

Once there was more than a token struggle, we could discuss the style. But what this is about is how it's trained, how that person ingrained responses to what situations, and it is obviously a problem of aliveness.

The best solution is training it, which requires tools, and we have some, but they only allow a percentage of strikes when they could allow more.

More of the same is NOT the answer.

[goju]

so why not compete in\k1 or full contact kickboxing if its the grappling that stope people competing?

the gloves limit what you can do

when i have boxing gloves on i box i dont try to trap or do anything else

[Dragonzbane76]

plain and simple its a venue for testing. Its nothing more. The less the rule set the closer you are to actual combat. I agree to a point that 'street' is differing and there are many variables that don't come into play in the ring. But, saying that fighting in the ring will not help to promote skills outside it is just dumb.

[uki]

But, saying that fighting in the ring will not help to promote skills outside it is just dumb.

which is better... hands on experience flying an airplane or training in a simulator?? that's the utter argument right there - cage fighting is simply sport, if this were not so, you'd see more people being disqualified.

[MasterKiller]

which is better... hands on experience flying an airplane or training in a simulator?? that's the utter argument right there - cage fighting is simply sport, if this were not so, you'd see more people being disqualified.

Fighting in a cage is hands on experience, as compared to someone who say, juggles and does free-forms most of the time....

[bawang]

mma is much more forgiving than old lei tai. in traditional lei tai once you get taken down you lose the fight period.

in ancient china wrestlers wore metal cups and leather protectors, so the eye poking groin kicking death match is a myth.

[Wayfaring]

Why do you Canadians hound me at every turn?

I will now take time out from this MMA discussion for a public service Canadian anecdote:

Q: Why does everyone in Montreal do it doggie style?
A: So they can both watch the Canadian Olympic hockey team win the Gold!

Q: How does the world know this?
A: Becuase they ran out of frikken condoms!!!!!
http://www.trendhunter.com/trends/va...ondom-shortage

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Wayfaring]

He asked why it wasn't prevelant in MMA competitions given that its marketed as being so effective.

Because WCK is 99% of the time heavy on the marketing, light on the full contact sparring?

Whereas MMA schools are almost exactly the opposite?

[Dragonzbane76]

Fighting in a cage is hands on experience, as compared to someone who say, juggles and does free-forms most of the time....

here would have been the answer I probably gave you Uki.

[Frost]

the gloves limit what you can do

when i have boxing gloves on i box i dont try to trap or do anything else

so boxing gloves don't allow you to grapple...but you don't want to learn ground fighting in order to compete in MMA, is that right?

Wait how about a venue that uses MMA gloves but does not allow ground fighting why not invent that and compete there?! (oh no the canadians already tried that and it didn't work too well, just ask james thompson )

or alternativly do as other people have done bite the bullet and compete in one or the other, at the local level not having much grappling won't be that much of a problem, lots of guys compete that suck on the ground

[KC Elbows]

Boxing and mma use gloves that allow pretty much live training of pretty much 100% of their strikes.

TMA uses gloves that allow pretty much live training of 60% of their strikes.

Why shouldn't there be a difference in the results?

As for ground, it's important, but the solution to that is obvious.

In the WC discussion, obviously striking is the issue, and I hold that you are doing an uphill battle trying to encapsulate a striking system that you don't fully train in a live manner.

In mma, most people would not consider someone who has done most of the techniques, but not live, to really know mma. TMA needs to get there.

[Frost]

Boxing and mma use gloves that allow pretty much live training of pretty much 100% of their strikes.

TMA uses gloves that allow pretty much live training of 60% of their strikes.

Why shouldn't there be a difference in the results?

As for ground, it's important, but the solution to that is obvious.

In the WC discussion, obviously striking is the issue, and I hold that you are doing an uphill battle trying to encapsulate a striking system that you don't fully train in a live manner.

In mma, most people would not consider someone who has done most of the techniques, but not live, to really know mma. TMA needs to get there.

nicely put

[goju]

so boxing gloves don't allow you to grapple...but you don't want to learn ground fighting in order to compete in MMA, is that right?

?????

Wait how about a venue that uses MMA gloves but does not allow ground fighting why not invent that and compete there?! (oh no the canadians already tried that and it didn't work too well, just ask james thompson )

actually yes ive thought about this before if the day comes where i have the money to fund a event like this ill be more than hpppy to get it going

[Frost]

?????



actually yes ive thought about this before if the day comes where i have the money to fund a event like this ill be more than hpppy to get it going

don't bother the canadians tried something like this..to say it didn't work would be putting it mildly

[Merryprankster]

rules and regulations are are detrimental to any style of fighting... in a real fight there are no rules... fighting is for self-defense and winning whatever the cost, not satisfying someone elses politically correct ego.

All this shows is that you don't understand competition or competitors.