Chinaboxer video - 3 beats in training

[sihing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-qSbi8cyyI ,

One of Jin's newier videos, I thought I would post it here to start a topic of discussion. Let's try to keep it on subject

I found what he has to say interesting, as I never looked at it quite the way he does. Timing is so important in everything we do in life, combat is no different. What I can appreciate about the video, is when Jin talks about what happens when you age and your physical attributes start to fade, this is beat and half mode according to him, and requires us to use our "body frame" to slow the other guys movement down so that we can apply our own tools.

Jin's been putting up tutorial video's for about a year now, and I think he should be applauded for it. Not everyone agrees on what he teaches, that is ok, as no one will agree with everything anyone has to say about anything, it's not about agreeing or disagree, rather it is about exposing one to anothers method and learning about it. Most of his vids, regarding Wing Chun that is, are basic level stuff, SNT material and how to bring that body frame alive within you. Without that basic foundation, as can be seen in most of the WC vids on youtube, your WC is non existent in what you are doing and how you are applying it.

James

[t_niehoff]

His explanation of "beats" is simply wrong. When YOUR OPPONENT moves, he has a rhythm/timing, let's say 1-2 (jab-cross). If you move on his 1, then you are moving on his beat. When you move between his actions, you move on the half-beat. It is not about speed per se. You can, for exmaple, hit on the half-beat and move slower than your opponent.

Yes, WCK's method involves slowing the opponent down -- that comes from contact, from attachment -- by closing him down (dap, jeet) and by making him go through or around your structure. You can't slow your opponent down at non-contact.

[SAAMAG]

^^^^





Though more on topic, I think Bruce Lee explained it well in the TOJKD.

[sihing]

His explanation of "beats" is simply wrong. When YOUR OPPONENT moves, he has a rhythm/timing, let's say 1-2 (jab-cross). If you move on his 1, then you are moving on his beat. When you move between his actions, you move on the half-beat. It is not about speed per se. You can, for exmaple, hit on the half-beat and move slower than your opponent.

Yes, WCK's method involves slowing the opponent down -- that comes from contact, from attachment -- by closing him down (dap, jeet) and by making him go through or around your structure. You can't slow your opponent down at non-contact.

I believe what you said above is what Jin said, so how is he wrong? I agree that it's not about speed, but timing and having the tools in the right place. If I try to hit the guy between his actions, but my fist is coming from behind my head, it won't work. The tools have to be in front, plus my ability to perceive it has to be developed, and lastly the timing has to be right. There's also the factors of how fast my opponent is, if he's slow then I can work off the half beat, but if he's fast it will be on beat 1 or 1 1/2, lots of factors to consider, none of which can be adequately realized on a MA forum or thru a video, but at the least the information is being exposed.

James

P.S. I agree with your last point, contact is need to apply the structure. Since most of us slow down as we age, and in the street contact is usually the MO, you would think WC training would be an asset here, correct?

[t_niehoff]

I believe what you said above is what Jin said, so how is he wrong? I agree that it's not about speed, but timing and having the tools in the right place. If I try to hit the guy between his actions, but my fist is coming from behind my head, it won't work. The tools have to be in front, plus my ability to perceive it has to be developed, and lastly the timing has to be right. There's also the factors of how fast my opponent is, if he's slow then I can work off the half beat, but if he's fast it will be on beat 1 or 1 1/2, lots of factors to consider, none of which can be adequately realized on a MA forum or thru a video, but at the least the information is being exposed.

No, we aren't saying the same things.

I object the the whole theoretical nature of his "talk" -- it's all nonsense (as is his video series). All he is doing is what most theoretical guys do: over-complicate things. When people talk "concepts", they are talking crap. And WCK doesn't need more crap.

When you begin to look at WCK from a skill-based perspective, you'll see what I am talking about. To learn a skill, you don't need concepts or other crap, what you need is for someone to show you HOW TO perform that skill, when, where -- the context -- to perform that skill. That's it. That's how we really learn skills. That's how you learned to ride a bike, to drive a car, etc.

Any video (or class or seminar or instruction) that doesn't include showing what they are teaching working successfully in fighting is probably bullsh1t.

P.S. I agree with your last point, contact is need to apply the structure. Since most of us slow down as we age, and in the street contact is usually the MO, you would think WC training would be an asset here, correct?

My view is that WCK "training" as most people do it only makes people worse fighters.

[LSWCTN1]

No, we aren't saying the same things.

I object the the whole theoretical nature of his "talk" -- it's all nonsense (as is his video series). All he is doing is what most theoretical guys do: over-complicate things. When people talk "concepts", they are talking crap. And WCK doesn't need more crap.

When you begin to look at WCK from a skill-based perspective, you'll see what I am talking about. To learn a skill, you don't need concepts or other crap, what you need is for someone to show you HOW TO perform that skill, when, where -- the context -- to perform that skill. That's it. That's how we really learn skills. That's how you learned to ride a bike, to drive a car, etc.

Any video (or class or seminar or instruction) that doesn't include showing what they are teaching working successfully in fighting is probably bullsh1t.



My view is that WCK "training" as most people do it only makes people worse fighters.

so you have all the keys...

i was actually having a rant at you for a while then, but deleted it all. its not worth it

[k gledhill]

I watched but didnt agree ....

[SAAMAG]

Terence,

ChinaBoxer explains it that a beat is a full beat like in music (citing cha-cha dancing of Bruce's yesteryear). He say's a half beat is 50% of a full beat, whereas a 1-1/2 beat is 150% of a full beat, here he's explaining the relative relationship of the beats.

Next, he says that attacking on the half-beat is like hitting the opponent before the opponents attack can be fully realized (i.e. the jeet-da). This can also be likened to hitting in between beats 1 and 2. So YOU DO agree with this part it seems.

He says in short that attacking on the full beat is matching the opponents timing. So like a standard pak-da or tan-da would be done on a full beat according to him. I don't see any problem with this explanation, and based your original take I doubt you would either.

He says attacking on the 1.5 beat is basically defending the attack and countering afterwards on the "escort what comes" part of the "loy lao hoy sung lut sao jik chung" saying. This one is where I'm like...eh. I don't consider that part of the whole beat and rythm equation because at that point you're not timing your opponent to hit on or between you're simply counterattacking once the opponents attack is finished. If it was between attack 1 and 2, then we're back to the first explanation of timing.

Though essentially, he is saying that that the beat is based on the opponents rythm, not your own. He's not talking about mechanical speed, he's talking about timing the opponent. Though I think the way he explained it could have been a little more succinct as its not a difficult concept or even a necessary concept.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like CB stuff, evenif I don't always agree, I know that there are many paths up the same mountain.

As for timing, in my limited ( ) experience I know that timing is very style specific and person specific.

Timing in TKD is different than in Shotokan, just as timing in WC is different than in MT.
Boxers (as an example) us the first round or so to "find their range", ie: their timing VS that particular opponent, that shows that even when fighting a person of the same style, timing is effected by the individual.

Of course you can just "throw out" timing and NOT make it an issue at all.

[couch]

Of course you can just "throw out" timing and NOT make it an issue at all.

I like this idea instead. Spar, move around, do Chi Sau...figure it out as you go along...that way it's personal and organic.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like this idea instead. Spar, move around, do Chi Sau...figure it out as you go along...that way it's personal and organic.

Becareful Bro, those very things, if you are not careful, will create a dependance on timing.

[SAAMAG]

Becareful Bro, those very things, if you are not careful, will create a dependance on timing.

Man everyone's into organic stuff nowadays! Organic vegtables, organic meats, organic wing chun, organic organics!!

[sihing]

The timing things the Jin talks about in his vid, for me it's more about an awareness of it. When you are learning something physical, you are learning the timing of it as well as the other things involved with successfully performing that activity. Successfully performing an activity has nothing to do with winning or losing, but rather is about your ability to perform the movement correctly, with proper mechanics and natural flow and timing. Everything physical is made up of these things, but when you are aware of them, on intellectual and feeling level, it can help you self correct and perform it all more proficiently.

Some of the things Jin talked about, it made me more aware of some of the timing issues. Now I agree, in the beginning of learning I wouldn't want to be concerned with these things, but after years and years of training I think it is okay to explore it. For me, when he mentioned the idea of us getting older and less able to use our physical attributes of speed and timing, it made sense that we would have to use a slower beat rhythm (which isn't a conscious action), instead of always trying to be a step ahead of your opponent. This IMO works in perfectly with the WC way of doing things, since for the most part bridging is what we do. But if bridging is not there, it still works as well, since the primary idea is to hit and KO your opponent.

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

The thing with timing is that it is too subjective.
Take stop-hitting or simutaenous strike/blocking, it requires near-perfect timing to work well and that timing can't be drilled and developed in class and sparring, though it MAY seem to be.
And here is why:
In sparring we are fighting people we know in a system we know and they move the way we know, timing them is "easy".
Bring into the equation a new guy, same system but new and awkward, timing is effected already.
Now, add to that the element of stress, AND the opponent not being known AND probably having a different style of movement and timing is out the window and why fighters use "feeling rounds" to get their timing adjusted.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Timing is always dependent upon the movement and the speed of your opponent. So "practicing" timing can be very overated - other than to try and "drill" hitting on the half beat with your workout partners (nothing new with this, been taught this from day one in wing chun with both instructors, Moy Yat & William Cheung)...

But as was said, this is all relative to the specific opponent...and can only come into play on a case-by-case basis during sparring, fighting, chi sao, whatever.

Hitting on the half beat may work against this guy, but not against that guy (ie.- the second guy is too fast).

So the whole concept of hitting on the half beat can be very overated.

You just have to find what works - in terms of timing - against each individual opponent.