Chinaboxer video - 3 beats in training

[sihing]

The thing with timing is that it is too subjective.
Take stop-hitting or simutaenous strike/blocking, it requires near-perfect timing to work well and that timing can't be drilled and developed in class and sparring, though it MAY seem to be.
And here is why:
In sparring we are fighting people we know in a system we know and they move the way we know, timing them is "easy".
Bring into the equation a new guy, same system but new and awkward, timing is effected already.
Now, add to that the element of stress, AND the opponent not being known AND probably having a different style of movement and timing is out the window and why fighters use "feeling rounds" to get their timing adjusted.

Correct, things are much different in application like you said re: the stress and new guy things, that is why there is no concern with that type of stuff in application, stop hitting or simultaneous hitting, you just engage when the distance is right. Think if it this way, if you can hit me with any type of strike I can hit you as well, the distance is right for both of us, so one has to understand the distance equation and how to use it. Sometimes you will be engaged with physical contact already in place (someone has grabbed you from behind or from the side), so the distance is already set and this is danger zone, as now you arehave to catch up. Other times there is no preset contact, and the guy has to engage upon you, when that time comes when both of you are able to connect, you just enter and hit, as most all the WC movements include both elements entry and hittin in one move. From there all you can do is "Play your game" and shut the guy down with your offence, no one can predict here what will happen, either you defeat him or lose, or you run, lol...

The best you can hope for is that you beat him to the punch (half beat), the worst is that you have to stop and hit (beat and half).

James

[Pacman]

a few comments:

1. Jin says WC only moves forward. I was taught that you should never move back, but lateral movement is ok. If you are taught to only move forward, no wonder you see two people spar and "chain punch" each other into oblivion, trading blow for blow

2. wouldnt it make sense to not fight on a rythm? wouldnt that make you more predictable?

[Matrix]

The timing things the Jin talks about in his vid, for me it's more about an awareness of it. When you are learning something physical, you are learning the timing of it as well as the other things involved with successfully performing that activity.

James,
The problem I have with this video is that the timing is always based on what the opponent is doing. It seems that the opponent is dictating the pace, and we're supposed to time ourselves off that. If you find yourself in front of someone in a "real fight", trying to assess how athletic or fast or slow or whatever they are, doesn't make sense me. By the time you figure out they're faster, it's probably too late.

I have to agree with Terence here. It seems overly complicated to be practical. Just perform the skill and forget about the theoretical chatter. Yes, you can and should work on different timings, but they are timings that you are dictating based on the situation, not as a result of constantly reacting.

Besides, WC isn't based on being physically stronger or faster than the opponent. If it was, I would have to spend more time lifting weights and doing plyometrics.

[Matrix]

1. Jin says WC only moves forward. I was taught that you should never move back, but lateral movement is ok. If you are taught to only move forward, no wonder you see two people spar and "chain punch" each other into oblivion, trading blow for blow

Pacman.

I pretty much agree with you. When he said WC only steps forward, that struck me as inaccurate, to say the least. I don't like it when people try to put these kind of limits on WC. There's more footwork than that. I would even say you can step back. However your intent is still forward as you do so.

2. wouldnt it make sense to not fight on a rythm? wouldnt that make you more predictable?

Yep. Especially if you're letting the opponent dictate the rhythm.

[sihing]

James,
The problem I have with this video is that the timing is always based on what the opponent is doing. It seems that the opponent is dictating the pace, and we're supposed to time ourselves off that. If you find yourself in front of someone in a "real fight", trying to assess how athletic or fast or slow or whatever they are, doesn't make sense me. By the time you figure out they're faster, it's probably too late.

I have to agree with Terence here. It seems overly complicated to be practical. Just perform the skill and forget about the theoretical chatter. Yes, you can and should work on different timings, but they are timings that you are dictating based on the situation, not as a result of constantly reacting.

Besides, WC isn't based on being physically stronger or faster than the opponent. If it was, I would have to spend more time lifting weights and doing plyometrics.

Hi Bill

That's why I said it's more about an awareness of it, an understanding intellecutally and while you are "training". I agree, when fighting and in application, you wouldn't concern yourself with this stuff, nor would you let the other guy dictate the pace or situation. Like they say you need to play your game and not let him play his

I also agree that there are backward type steps in Wing Chun, and one cannot limit themselves to a specific dogma like "we only move forward, or like this or that". In application, when the reality of a confrontation is in front of you, you are not in "training" mode, but in the midst of survival mode and the reality is that someone is intent on puttin some pain on your body, you do what you need to do without any preconceived idea or notion of what is about to happen. Sometimes you will intercept and become the aggressor, beating him to the attack, sometimes not, and you have to catch up, no one knows what will happen, you just do the best you can do when the time comes.

James

[Matrix]

Hi Bill
That's why I said it's more about an awareness of it, an understanding intellecutally and while you are "training". I agree, when fighting and in application, you wouldn't concern yourself with this stuff, nor would you let the other guy dictate the pace or situation. Like they say you need to play your game and not let him play his

Hi James,
I know were pretty much on the same page here. I just find that sometimes things to be over-intellectualized, if I may use that phrase. I am all for concepts, principles and theories, and ideas, don't get me wrong. They are important, but they should guidelines not straight-jackets. Too much thinking, too much theory, too little application.

I also agree that there are backward type steps in Wing Chun, and one cannot limit themselves to a specific dogma like "we only move forward, or like this or that". In application, when the reality of a confrontation is in front of you, you are not in "training" mode, but in the midst of survival mode and the reality is that someone is intent on puttin some pain on your body, you do what you need to do without any preconceived idea or notion of what is about to happen. Sometimes you will intercept and become the aggressor, beating him to the attack, sometimes not, and you have to catch up, no one knows what will happen, you just do the best you can do when the time comes.

Agreed. We're definitely on the same page here.

All the best,
Bill

[sihing]

Hi James,
I know were pretty much on the same page here. I just find that sometimes things to be over-intellectualized, if I may use that phrase. I am all for concepts, principles and theories, and ideas, don't get me wrong. They are important, but they should guidelines not straight-jackets. Too much thinking, too much theory, too little application.


Agreed. We're definitely on the same page here.

All the best,
Bill

Cool

I guess for me, as someone that is teaching as well, I look at all sorts of WC video's, and even if I don't agree with the mechanics or the particular way the person on the vid is doing something, once in awhile a vid sparks something in me, makes me think of something forgotten or reminds of something I haven't trained or taught in awhile. So on some levels, for me personally, I don't mind the over intellectualization of things, it sparks my imagination as a teacher, but I totally agree, if all we are talking about is personal application, then the only thing need to be said is "Just hit the M FO..." lol

James

[Pacman]

I would even say you can step back. However your intent is still forward as you do so.

hi matrix

lets say for arguments sake that your intent can still forward while moving backwards, i would say that it is always more beneficial to move laterally than backwards. by moving backwards you are letting your opponent advance gameplan. by moving laterally you can make use of angles etc.

its like if a train is coming at you. would you run backwards or step to the side.

i agree with what james says in that in a real situation maybe for some reason you have to step back (especially with multiple opponents), but for the sake of training and the mindset that you have when you are training, moving backwards should not be a part of it.

[Pacman]

Take stop-hitting or simutaenous strike/blocking, it requires near-perfect timing to work well

i disagree. your fist doesn't have to hit the guys face and your hand does need to block the guys strike at the same moment for it to work.

training simultaneous blocking and striking is simple...the point is to get you to be able to use two hands at once, to do two things at once. to train you to not block/evade when you see a punch and then fire back a punch of your own. its to train you to block/evade as you strike.

when people bob and weave or cover up when punches come at them and then hit back when its all over--this is "tit for tat" and that is not what wing chun emphasizes.

this goes back to the idea of always keeping pressure on the opponent and always advancing, however some people misunderstand the core concept and turn it into "in WC you only move forward". again, this is probably why we see sparring videos where people fly at each other and chain punch as fast as they can. and then people like terrence say "thats how wing chun is in reality! good for them!"

[Matrix]

i agree with what james says in that in a real situation maybe for some reason you have to step back (especially with multiple opponents), but for the sake of training and the mindset that you have when you are training, moving backwards should not be a part of it.

So, why don't you train for real situations? I don't necessarily agree that a lateral move is ALWAYS better. I have this thing about being able to move wherever I want, when it's to my best advantage to do so, but I guess that's just me.

I prefer not to move backwards, and not even laterally, in the pure sense of to the side. More on an angle, or diagonal, rather than to the side.

My point is that when someone says NEVER move back, then I question that. I didn't say it is preferred most the time, or even some of the time, but it has it's place on occaison. I'm just saying, never say never.

Sometimes you need to move back, and maybe not straight back, to create some space for yourself. If you don't train to move in all directions, then odds are it will never come to you when needed.

And, just what kind of stepping are we talking about anyways?

Bill

[Added]

its like if a train is coming at you. would you run backwards or step to the side.

I guess that would depend which way I am facing, relative to the train. If I'm standing sideways relative to the train, and I step to the side, what has that done for me?
It seems you need to have all the details before you can decide which course of action is the best.

[Pacman]

hi matrix

yes when i said laterally i really mean more diagonal.

when i say it is ideal not step backwards, i dont mean you can never step backwards ever in a situation, i mean that when training, you should not make it a habit to move backwards when someone moves in towards you and attacks.

i also want to move wherever is best to my advantage, and to me backwards is usually not the case. i cant imagine a situation where moving backwards is more beneficial, assuming you are fighting one on one

So, why don't you train for real situations? I don't necessarily agree that a lateral move is ALWAYS better. I have this thing about being able to move wherever I want, when it's to my best advantage to do so, but I guess that's just me.

I prefer not to move backwards, and not even laterally, in the pure sense of to the side. More on an angle, or diagonal, rather than to the side.

My point is that when someone says NEVER move back, then I question that. I didn't say it is preferred most the time, or even some of the time, but it has it's place on occaison. I'm just saying, never say never.

Sometimes you need to move back, and maybe not straight back, to create some space for yourself. If you don't train to move in all directions, then odds are it will never come to you when needed.

And, just what kind of stepping are we talking about anyways?

Bill

[Matrix]

yes when i said laterally i really mean more diagonal.

when i say it is ideal not step backwards, i dont mean you can never step backwards ever in a situation, i mean that when training, you should not make it a habit to move backwards when someone moves in towards you and attacks.

i also want to move wherever is best to my advantage, and to me backwards is usually not the case. i cant imagine a situation where moving backwards is more beneficial, assuming you are fighting one on one

I think we're in agreement.
It's just when the terms ALWAYS or NEVER are used, they are absolute. It doesn't make sense to me to say NEVER do this, except when......

[t_niehoff]

I like this idea instead. Spar, move around, do Chi Sau...figure it out as you go along...that way it's personal and organic.

That's exactly right. You can't teach timing -- it only comes from sparring.

My objection is when people try to intellectualize what is essentially a physical process -- and typically, that is only done by people who can't actually do the skill itself (since if they could, they'd realize it isn't an intellectual process). That's why when I hear people talk like this guy, I know he doesn't have it, but still feels the need teach. Blind leading the blind.

[t_niehoff]

That's why I said it's more about an awareness of it, an understanding intellecutally and while you are "training".

This is the problem in a nutshell -- you CAN'T "intellectually understand" it. It's not about intellectual understanding. Learning and developing a skill doesn't work that way. Do you need to intellectually understand how to catch a ball? No. Is your skill at catching a ball in any way a product of your understanding? No.

Trying to intellectually understand it only impairs our development.

To learn and develop a skill what NEEDS to happen is that (1) you are shown what it is you want to do (the task), (2) shown how to do it and then (3) you practice doing it. That's it.

[YungChun]

Trying to intellectually understand it only impairs our development.

There's where you go too far.. (God it sounds like a prelude to book burning...)

There is nothing wrong with, and in fact it is useful to know and understand the science of performance... The science of Human Performance.

If there was no need to think about 'stuff' then there would hardly be any need to do a prefab system of fighting, unless it offered some useful knowledge base..

Timing and understanding how to use timing, different kinds of timing, etc, can certainly be useful when trying things in training.

If folks want some ideas on timing then look into Bruce's work on 'Broken Rhythm' in his JKD which is light years ahead of this guy in the clip...

WCK moves however you need it to.. I find it funny some folks are so "worried" about how WCK doesn't move.. LOL

Different conditions and tactics could mean your WCK will let you move wherever the F@$# you need to...

"Backward" is a great way to set up certain kinds of opponents.. If you are fighting or sparring and your opponent is not aggressive enough (staying out of range); shallow rearward movement on his initial leads can setup a 'broken rhythm' "forward" attack..