Chinaboxer video - 3 beats in training

[t_niehoff]

There's where you go too far..

There is nothing wrong with, and in fact it is useful to know and understand the science of performance... The science of Human Performance.

In so far as it pertains to how to effectively learn and train.

If there was no need to think about 'stuff' then there would hardly be any need to do a prefab system of fighting, unless it offered some useful knowledge base..

The various fighting methods are various skill sets that pertain to fighting. These methods were developed/evolved from the experiences of various people fighting -- just like how sports develop from the experiences of its players.

Do you need to intellectually understand basketball?

Timing and understanding how to use timing, different kinds of timing, etc, can certainly be useful when trying things in training.

Timing you only get from sparring. It's not based on intellctual understanding. The people who talk about it are talking out their asses.

If folks want some ideas on timing then look into Bruce's work on 'Broken Rhythm' in his JKD which is light years ahead of this guy in the clip...

I guess that is why JKD is producing all those top-notch fighters. Funny, how boxing and MT doesn't talk about any of that nonsense yet seems to keep producing high level people.

WCK moves however you need it to.. I find it funny some folks are so "worried" about how WCK doesn't move.. LOL

Different conditions and tactics could mean your WCK will let you move wherever the F@$# you need to...

Sure, anything and everything is WCK.

Backward is a great way to set up certain kinds of opponents.. If you are fighting or sparring and your opponent is not aggressive enough; shallow rearward movement on his initial leads can setup a 'broken rhythm' "forward" attack..

Why don't you show us how you can do that against decent boxers or MT fighters?

[YungChun]

The various fighting methods are various skill sets that pertain to fighting. These methods were developed/evolved from the experiences of various people fighting -- just like how sports develop from the experiences of its players.

Right.. The Classical Chinese Arts are not esoteric at all.. GMAFB..

Timing you only get from sparring. It's not based on intellctual understanding. The people who talk about it are talking out their asses.

Top Olympic trainers "think about it"... They also research it, study it, as does the armed forces... Where "it" means content that applies to training effectively..

All I can say is your head is waaaay up something it shouldn't be..

Sure, anything and everything is WCK.

Yes WCK allows human movement and does not limit you to only one direction.

Why don't you show us how you can do that against decent boxers or MT fighters?

If you really fought good fighters you'd know and use tactics like this to manage distance and closing..(as opposed to simply charging in)

[Matrix]

Trying to intellectually understand it only impairs our development.

You know, I've seen this happen many times. Some people are so into their heads that it prevents skill development. The over-intellectualize things. They are too much in their heads, even having conversations with themselves. Their physical development is essentially frozen by intellectual road blocks.

Having said that, I think there is definitely a place for intellectual understanding. You can't be purely physical either. Just doing, without thinking. As seems to be the case in most things in life there is a point of balance.

You give the example of catching a ball. Once that basic skill has been "learned" you can actually improve the efficiency, accuracy and power of pitching and catching a ball. You also need to take that basic skill and learn how to use it in the context of a real application ( i.e. a game). As a ballplayer , how do you catch the ball, analyse the play, and then throw the ball accurate and as quick as possible to where it needs to be for a successful outcome.

We are physical, and intellectual , and some would say spiritual beings. To me, it's about finding the right blend of these attributes that makes it work well. I'm sure you will disagree.

Bill

[sihing]

This is the problem in a nutshell -- you CAN'T "intellectually understand" it. It's not about intellectual understanding. Learning and developing a skill doesn't work that way. Do you need to intellectually understand how to catch a ball? No. Is your skill at catching a ball in any way a product of your understanding? No.
I disagree. IMO you can intellectually understand something, as well as physically understand something, and both may not be at the same level, I'm personally experiencing this right now. Also your examples, they have nothing to do with what we are talking about, catching a ball, riding a bike, throwing a frisbie, etc.. has nothing to do with timing a strike in a fight or dealing with timing, one's a simple movement, the other isn't, the reason is in combat you are dealing with another alive stimuli that thinks and reacts.

Trying to intellectually understand it only impairs our development.
I disagree again. One cannot train 24/7, but inbetween training I can read or watch video's and help myself understand that which I am learning. And since WC is about training, and since I teach it, it helps even more to intellectually understand what it is all about, it helps me translate the information to others. Like I said before, if it is only about your own combat effectiveness and application of those skills (can we really discuss that here, you and I are like how many 100's of miles away from one another??), then I agree, all of this stuff is a waste of time, just hit the guy already. You have to realize that what may not be YOUR way, may work for another. One mans trash is another mans treasure.

To learn and develop a skill what NEEDS to happen is that (1) you are shown what it is you want to do (the task), (2) shown how to do it and then (3) you practice doing it. That's it.
"But teacher, but teacher, how should I hold my fist", Answer -"You fist should be like this"- Q - "Why teacher" - A "Because .... bla bla bla bla..." intellectual understanding right there bro, or do you not verbally transmit information to those you teach or trade information with. I know your a fan of Steve Morris, if anyone is intellectually looking at combat it is him, he also does the physical of course, he has skills that can be easily seen. I have one of his NHB DVD's, it's got a ton of good info, but the guy is talking for 3/4 of the video, intellectually explaining to the two guys what he is teaching, lol. It's pretty obvious you read his blog, so do I, all of it is intellectualization based on his experiences and thoughts on things.

James.....

[sihing]

You know, I've seen this happen many times. Some people are so into their heads that it prevents skill development. The over-intellectualize things. They are too much in their heads, even having conversations with themselves. Their physical development is essentially frozen by intellectual road blocks.

Having said that, I think there is definitely a place for intellectual understanding. You can't be purely physical either. Just doing, without thinking. As seems to be the case in most things in life there is a point of balance.

You give the example of catching a ball. Once that basic skill has been "learned" you can actually improve the efficiency, accuracy and power of pitching and catching a ball. You also need to take that basic skill and learn how to use it in the context of a real application ( i.e. a game). As a ballplayer , how do you catch the ball, analyse the play, and then throw the ball accurate and as quick as possible to where it needs to be for a successful outcome.

We are physical, and intellectual , and some would say spiritual beings. To me, it's about finding the right blend of these attributes that makes it work well. I'm sure you will disagree.

Bill

T should use the example of a pitcher, pitchers in the pro leagues have pitching coaches, why? Because they are constantly looking at the pitcher, telling him things to help him throw the ball more accurately and harder. Why is it that Tiger Woods changed his swing a few years ago? Maybe just maybe someone (or even himself) took a look at his swing and decided that it needed to be changed or adapted. IMO that is an INTELLECTUAL process.

There has to be a happy medium. One is not going to get any good at a Martial Art without the physical time put in training in the system, rep after rep, drill after drill, sparring session after sparring session, this has to be done, that is a given. But in my experience it helps when the student understands, at least on a basic level the HOW'S and WHY'S of what they are doing. If your teaching this becomes even more important, and sooner or later someone needs to teach others otherwise the art will die within this generation, none of us come by this stuff naturally.

James

[YungChun]

Having said that, I think there is definitely a place for intellectual understanding. You can't be purely physical either. Just doing, without thinking. As seems to be the case in most things in life there is a point of balance.

Of course.. One must constantly do and analyze what they do...and then apply that to the science of whatever the thing is. This IS what the pros do.

I can't even fathom how folks can say understanding is problematic, assuming one does understand.. WCK is essentially a set of ideas that no doubt went through a process of ideation and doing/testing/refining.

We humans create in our minds and then test with our bodies, rinse repeat.. To deny that is to deny what we are and be left at the level of non thinking blobs of impulses and instincts.

[Matrix]

I can't even fathom how folks can say understanding is problematic, assuming one does understand.. WCK is essentially a set of ideas that no doubt went through a process of ideation and doing/testing/refining.

We humans create in our minds and then test with our bodies, rinse repeat.. To deny that is to deny what we are and be left at the level of non thinking blobs of impulses and instincts.

Hey Jim.
As usual, we seem to be on the same page.

The problem, as I see it, is not understanding per se, but the mental gyrations some people put themselves through. They are over-thinking. WCK is about practical application, but some folks make it into a more cerebral pursuit. It's less messy that way, but it's too much lip sao.

Some times (actually more often than not) you need to stop thinking and do it, but you also need to take some time to reflect on what you're actually doing. The key is to know when it's more appropriate to be doing or thinking. I'm sure you've seen people who are supposed to be training but are so into their thinking process that they can't move. Thought can inhibit the flow of action. So it's important not to turn WCK into some sort of mental gymastics that is an end unto itself. You need to be mentally present, but observing and not limiting the physical training. .....................or maybe I'm just thinking too much.

Bill

[HumbleWCGuy]

His explanation of "beats" is simply wrong. When YOUR OPPONENT moves, he has a rhythm/timing, let's say 1-2 (jab-cross). If you move on his 1, then you are moving on his beat. When you move between his actions, you move on the half-beat. It is not about speed per se. You can, for exmaple, hit on the half-beat and move slower than your opponent.

Yes, WCK's method involves slowing the opponent down -- that comes from contact, from attachment -- by closing him down (dap, jeet) and by making him go through or around your structure. You can't slow your opponent down at non-contact.

I can't stand his videos. He usually demonstrates his techniques reasonably well but his explanations are almost always filled with errors and usually not just debatable errors, dead wrong errors.

Although I think that this video actually seems to be accurate albeit a bit confusing.

[HumbleWCGuy]

This is the problem in a nutshell -- you CAN'T "intellectually understand" it. It's not about intellectual understanding. Learning and developing a skill doesn't work that way. Do you need to intellectually understand how to catch a ball? No. Is your skill at catching a ball in any way a product of your understanding? No.

Trying to intellectually understand it only impairs our development.

To learn and develop a skill what NEEDS to happen is that (1) you are shown what it is you want to do (the task), (2) shown how to do it and then (3) you practice doing it. That's it.

Intellectual understanding does not hamper development. The problem is when sifus who don't know what they are talking about try to intellectualize to students. Students then try to train to incorrect understandings and then they never learn to fight.

[YungChun]

Hey Jim.
As usual, we seem to be on the same page.

The problem, as I see it, is not understanding per se, but the mental gyrations some people put themselves through. They are over-thinking.

Yeah, I'm talking more about, for example, knowing what the correct mechanics are for training something; or understanding the tactic in play, the conditions needed for a technique to work, etc.. Understanding what we are trying to do.. Otherwise you just do, and hope you get lucky, which I can attest to, is not real efficient.