tao te ching

[Skip J.]

Ah yes, well....

If I had not been in that state from time to time for 30 years, I would not have learned it in class either. Hmmmnn... this does not bode well for teaching it. I can see that this will require some thought itself before teaching it.

I do the "relax the toes, relax the bubbling well, relax the heel" and on up to the crown point at the beginning. That is 100% of my visualization before visualizing whacking some bad guy. I'm not sure the beginners have the patience for that.... hmmm..... It's a package deal, all or none I guess.

Well class is tomorrow nite, I'll know soon whether I can or not....

[Skip J.]

Hey uki;

Sorry for the threadjack! Got carried away again....

[Hendrik]

This is my sigung's teaching for those who read Chinese. I think it will be great for someone who is good in translation to translate it into English. It will certainly benifits lots of people.


睡时的摄心法。每夜睡稳后温度适当，男宜右侧卧，左肩在上，女宜左侧卧，右肩在上。但亦不拘定，如有痛楚不 能左右侧者，亦听之，两腿稍屈，呼吸如上。


调匀后即管督此身，不许任何部分用一点气力，此是唯一条件。若有所思所闻所觉，即是用气力，甚至乎使臂指即 是用气力。呼吸稍粗亦即是用气力。


如同自身是个死人，一切不能动作，又自视如一粒糖放在水内，化散乌有，不久那呼吸自然而平，似乎不由口鼻内 出纳，而浑身八万四千毛孔中有了动作，或张或翕，此时无我无身无气无心，天然心归本位。所谓引火归元，又名 水火既济，为治疗百病之总诀，且不比用药石有副作用，或留后患也。此法不拘多少时间，即几分钟亦有许多益处 ，几时睡着亦不管它，听其自然。


如睡至半夜，不能睡，切勿强睡，不妨再试一、二次。如仍不能睡，即可起身，稍歇再睡，切忌辗转反侧，胡思乱 想，或感觉饥饿口渴，养成失眠头晕等病。




My sigung

http://xzxdc.com/xmwj/a117.htm

[Hendrik]

Ah yes, well....

If I had not been in that state from time to time for 30 years, I would not have learned it in class either. Hmmmnn... this does not bode well for teaching it. I can see that this will require some thought itself before teaching it.

I do the "relax the toes, relax the bubbling well, relax the heel" and on up to the crown point at the beginning. That is 100% of my visualization before visualizing whacking some bad guy. I'm not sure the beginners have the patience for that.... hmmm..... It's a package deal, all or none I guess.

Well class is tomorrow nite, I'll know soon whether I can or not....

Skip,

Great.

When I teach pay attention. I dont teach how to visualize or think because that can create tension for most people.

So, what i did is i cut a small piece of tape and tape it on the place need to pay attention to. I just ask the student to aware of that tape there, just aware and nothing else. dont have to focus or think or anything, just know it there effortless.

and then later, we will no longer use the tape. but just make believe one know the tape is there when needed.

with the general rule of lower abs attention is safe. bubble spring is a no no for low blood pressure people, tip of the head is no no for high blood pressure people. and one needs to let the attention naturally fade away after a short while and come back to pay attention later if one lost the silence, thus, keep the attention on and fade away back and forth instead of keep strong attention in the location which mean using force. and using force is a wrong practice. using force doesnt accord to Dao.

Just some thoughts.

[Skip J.]

Hey Hendrik;

Good idea!

Thanks for the website link too. I loved the picture of the crane planting the tree!

I have also practiced bonsais for 30 years and am drifting into penjing the last few years. Those trees on the website were shaped extensively before planting I could see. Penjing on a massive scale!

[Scott R. Brown]

My only problem with pushing this idea of "silence" is that the "silence is not actually silent!

There is NO silence! It is like being in the world, but not being affected by the world. The noise is always there, but one remains calm and non-affected by it. So one could "call" it silent, but it isn't really silent. One is just non-affected by chaos/noise/the world system.

Having said that, when one labels anything one leads others to conceptualize about it. So by teaching others to look for the silence, find the silence, stating "it is silence", etc. is very misleading and causes the student to "look" for a silence that is not there, thus leading them astray.

It is similar to Hui-Neng's criticism of mind washers who try to purify a mind that is pure from the beginning. These people start out with a concept of mind, which does not exist, and proceed to cleanse it, when it is not dirty from the start, in order to achieve a purity, that is always there from the beginning.

It is a dog chasing its tail to no purpose!

Silence is a conceptualization and "IT" is NOT silent. It is "called" silent because it must be called something in order to communicate with others, but it is NOT silent. One just interacts as if one is unmoved while moving, within silence while hearing sounds, thinks as if not having thoughts, etc.

[Hendrik]

My only problem with pushing this idea of "silence" is that the "silence is not actually silent!

There is NO silence!

It is like being in the world, but not being affected by the world.


The noise is always there, but one remains calm and non-affected by it. So one could "call" it silent, but it isn't really silent. One is just non-affected by chaos/noise/the world system.

Having said that, when one labels anything one leads others to conceptualize about it. So by teaching others to look for the silence, find the silence, stating "it is silence", etc. is very misleading and causes the student to "look" for a silence that is not there, thus leading them astray.

It is similar to Hui-Neng's criticism of mind washers who try to purify a mind that is pure from the beginning. These people start out with a concept of mind, which does not exist, and proceed to cleanse it, when it is not dirty from the start, in order to achieve a purity, that is always there from the beginning.

It is a dog chasing its tail to no purpose!

Silence is a conceptualization and "IT" is NOT silent. It is "called" silent because it must be called something in order to communicate with others, but it is NOT silent. One just interacts as if one is unmoved while moving, within silence while hearing sounds, thinks as if not having thoughts, etc.

The above is absolutely reasonable if one based on books reading and understanding.

However, when it comes to the cultivation, the above ideas create a mess.


A pragmatic example is the Alpha brain wave state, Those who recognizes alpha and be able to get in and out of alpha at will is totally heaven and earth different then those who read about alpha and beta wave but have never been in alpha and not able to get out of beta.



Silence, to the very minimum or shallow level relate to alpha wave. Do one recognize what is alpha and can get in and out alpha at will? until then theories and reasoning doesnt do a thing but spinning the mind faster and speculate even more.



Dao is simple.

Thus it said,


無 名 天 地 之 始 ﹔

Beyond could be identifying with mind is the origin of heaven and earth.

This means one needs to go beyond the mind. Mind is a creation machine, one needs to go beyond the mind to be "beingness" or the origin. Mind doesnt know Beingness because Beingnes is "be" and beyond " know, aware, think, identifying....."


有 名 萬 物 之 母 。


able to identify with mind is the source give birth to millions of things.

This means all things are created with mind.




故 常 無 ， 欲 以 觀 其 妙 ﹔

Thus, being in boundless, the intention to let go the mind and enter into the boundless is to observe the wonderful beyond creation.
This means dropping the mind one will "be" the wonderful beyond creation.

Or as in the west said, Let Go and Let God "Be".



常 有 ， 欲 以 觀 其 徼 。

focus on limits/bounday, the intention of focus the mind is to observe the creation/manifestation.

focus the mind and creation/manifestation begun, for mind is the machine to create.




此 兩 者 ， 同 出 而 異 名 ， 同 謂 之 玄 。

Both Being in boundless and focus the mind, they are from the same source although human using different identity/terms to describe them.

One is the "body" one is the "applicaton" of the "body, without the "body" there is no application, without the application the "body" is useless. They are from the same source means non dual.


This means, to be totally free, one needs to be in non dual. and to be in non dual means no attachement to either beings or mind, for one is the "body" and one is the " application" of the body. Similar to a coin with two faces. To be free, liberate, "be" with the Dao, one doesnt make discrimination of the two, one doesnt attached to both.

[uki]

The above is absolutely reasonable if one based on books reading and understanding.

However, when it comes to the cultivation, the above ideas create a mess.


A pragmatic example is the Alpha brain wave state, Those who recognizes alpha and be able to get in and out of alpha at will is totally heaven and earth different then those who read about alpha and beta wave but have never been in alpha and not able to get out of beta.



Silence, to the very minimum or shallow level relate to alpha wave. Do one recognize what is alpha and can get in and out alpha at will? until then theories and reasoning doesnt do a thing but spinning the mind faster and speculate even more.



Dao is simple.

Thus it said,


無 名 天 地 之 始 ﹔

Beyond could be identifying with mind is the origin of heaven and earth.

This means one needs to go beyond the mind. Mind is a creation machine, one needs to go beyond the mind to be "beingness" or the origin. Mind doesnt know Beingness because Beingnes is "be" and beyond " know, aware, think, identifying....."


有 名 萬 物 之 母 。


able to identify with mind is the source give birth to millions of things.

This means all things are created with mind.




故 常 無 ， 欲 以 觀 其 妙 ﹔

Thus, being in boundless, the intention to let go the mind and enter into the boundless is to observe the wonderful beyond creation.
This means dropping the mind one will "be" the wonderful beyond creation.

Or as in the west said, Let Go and Let God "Be".



常 有 ， 欲 以 觀 其 徼 。

focus on limits/bounday, the intention of focus the mind is to observe the creation/manifestation.

focus the mind and creation/manifestation begun, for mind is the machine to create.




此 兩 者 ， 同 出 而 異 名 ， 同 謂 之 玄 。

Both Being in boundless and focus the mind, they are from the same source although human using different identity/terms to describe them.

One is the "body" one is the "applicaton" of the "body, without the "body" there is no application, without the application the "body" is useless. They are from the same source means non dual.


This means, to be totally free, one needs to be in non dual. and to be in non dual means no attachement to either beings or mind, for one is the "body" and one is the " application" of the body. Similar to a coin with two faces. To be free, liberate, "be" with the Dao, one doesnt make discrimination of the two, one doesnt attached to both.

ummmm... it's all summed up with the phrase: mind is the path.

[Skip J.]

....There is NO silence! It is like being in the world, but not being affected by the world. The noise is always there, but one remains calm and non-affected by it. So one could "call" it silent, but it isn't really silent. One is just non-affected by chaos/noise/the world system.

Having said that, when one labels anything one leads others to conceptualize about it. So by teaching others to look for the silence, find the silence, stating "it is silence", etc. is very misleading and causes the student to "look" for a silence that is not there, thus leading them astray.

Well said Scott!

This is the perfect instance of the difficulty of translating words across cultural boundaries...

[Skip J.]

ummmm... it's all summed up with the phrase: mind is the path.

you be the man uki......

[Scott R. Brown]

The above is absolutely reasonable if one based on books reading and understanding.

However, when it comes to the cultivation, the above ideas create a mess.


A pragmatic example is the Alpha brain wave state, Those who recognizes alpha and be able to get in and out of alpha at will is totally heaven and earth different then those who read about alpha and beta wave but have never been in alpha and not able to get out of beta.



Silence, to the very minimum or shallow level relate to alpha wave. Do one recognize what is alpha and can get in and out alpha at will? until then theories and reasoning doesnt do a thing but spinning the mind faster and speculate even more.



Dao is simple.

Thus it said,


無 名 天 地 之 始 ﹔

Beyond could be identifying with mind is the origin of heaven and earth.

This means one needs to go beyond the mind. Mind is a creation machine, one needs to go beyond the mind to be "beingness" or the origin. Mind doesnt know Beingness because Beingnes is "be" and beyond " know, aware, think, identifying....."


有 名 萬 物 之 母 。


able to identify with mind is the source give birth to millions of things.

This means all things are created with mind.




故 常 無 ， 欲 以 觀 其 妙 ﹔

Thus, being in boundless, the intention to let go the mind and enter into the boundless is to observe the wonderful beyond creation.
This means dropping the mind one will "be" the wonderful beyond creation.

Or as in the west said, Let Go and Let God "Be".



常 有 ， 欲 以 觀 其 徼 。

focus on limits/bounday, the intention of focus the mind is to observe the creation/manifestation.

focus the mind and creation/manifestation begun, for mind is the machine to create.




此 兩 者 ， 同 出 而 異 名 ， 同 謂 之 玄 。

Both Being in boundless and focus the mind, they are from the same source although human using different identity/terms to describe them.

One is the "body" one is the "applicaton" of the "body, without the "body" there is no application, without the application the "body" is useless. They are from the same source means non dual.


This means, to be totally free, one needs to be in non dual. and to be in non dual means no attachement to either beings or mind, for one is the "body" and one is the " application" of the body. Similar to a coin with two faces. To be free, liberate, "be" with the Dao, one doesnt make discrimination of the two, one doesnt attached to both.

Unfortunately, Hendrik, you are, once again, showing off your lack of knowledge and experience and how well you can speculate about what you know nothing about. You are a novice who thinks he is an expert.

My comments are a description my direct experiences, experiences you CLEARLY have not had. This is how I know that you are full of yourself and have no direct experience yourself.

If you had any direct experience you would understand. But since all you can do is repeat what your master taught you without any true understanding you continually embarrass yourself.

Why are you still doing yourself what you criticize others of doing? In this very thread you criticized translations from Chinese, yet you provide translations with commentary of Chinese texts?

You just now falsely claimed my comments originated from book learning and then quoted a book to support your thesis.

How can anyone be so dense and foolish as to not recognize his own, OBVIOUS hypocrisy and ignorance?

Your insight into your own mind is very shallow! You cannot see your own hypocrisy when it is staring you in the face! You speculate that others are speculating while criticizing their descriptions of their own direct experiences as speculations!

I feel very sorry for you! You are a very sad individual who does not recognize that the ignorance he sees in others is his own!

Good Luck along your path, ha ha!!

[uki]

you be the man uki......

amazing how things end up the way the do.

[Scott R. Brown]

Well said Scott!

This is the perfect instance of the difficulty of translating words across cultural boundaries...

Thanks Skip!

It is actually a bit more complicated than that though. It is not just cross-culture we are dealing with here, but a huge difference in historical time. Most of the salient texts on Ch'an, and Buddhism in general, are 1,000-2,000 years old.

The context of the teachings, then, can be very easily misunderstood because we not only interpret teachings according to our culture, but also according to our historical perspective which is greatly affected by our modern education level as well.

More people are literate now than were literate 1,000-2,500 years ago. Our knowledge base is also PROFOUNDLY deeper.

We know about germs, and infra-red/ultra-violet light, the laws of physics, planetary movements, etc. We understand what affects and causes weather, earthquakes, eclipses and lightning and thunder! All this general knowledge affects the way we view life and the universe in general. It also changes the way we communicate with each other concerning our direct experiences. We have a perspective on life they could not imagine 1,000-2,500 years ago.

So when reading anything written 1,000-2,500 years ago, Buddha lived about 2,500 years ago, Hui-Neng about 1,300 years ago, we must also consider the knowledge base they were working within, as well as the cultural context, of their comments and actions.

This is why individuals are encouraged, within Ch'an, to investigate directly for themselves. When we understand according to the texts, we understand based upon what others have said, we "believe", but when we have direct experience we no longer “believe”, we "know".

It is similar to a person writing a text on the taste of an orange. A reader, who has never tasted an orange, will only have a “belief” in what an orange tastes like according to what he understands from the text. But the person will "know" what an orange tastes like when he finally eats one for himself. When the orange is tasted directly the individual will compare the actual experience with what he read about it. In some cases he will think, "Ohhhhh! THAT is what he, the author, meant!" concerning some specific detail. While concerning other details he might think, "No! I don't agree with that!"

The individual who has just tasted an orange for the first time, will have a different perspective than a person who has eaten hundreds or thousands of oranges. And, of course, each individual will communicate their direct experience of the taste of an orange slightly differently. Some may like the taste, some may dislike it. Some will wax poetic about the taste of an orange, some may paint a picture, while others will be more objective or scientific in their manner of communicating their direct experience.

The same experience will be represented differently by each person who communicates their direct experience to others, but there will remain, in general, some common themes.

Once again, that is why any depiction, description, gesture, etc is only pointing the way and NOTHING ELSE! It is an experience we must each have for ourselves.

And this is why my constant disagreements with Hendrik occur. He “presumes”, he “speculates”, concerning what he “believes” are my own experiences and is repeatedly in error. I know what my direct experiences are, he does not.

Now concerning his preconceived concept of “silence”:

I entered into this state some 30 years ago, I have had the direct experience more than once, and I may have the experience again, any time I choose. I know what I am talking about because I have had the direct experience. That experience was also confirmed by what I have read concerning this experience “since” then. I did not read about “silence” and then fantasized my way into believing I have had it. I was not instructed by a “teacher” about it and then conformed my experience to what I was “taught” it was “supposed” to be like.

I have had the experience “directly”, and I report what I KNOW about the “direct” experience to others. Take it or leave it, however I can state as a fact of the matter, according to MY OWN direct experience:

THERE IS NO SILENCE! Yet at the same time it is “like” silence. The best way to describe it is “Silence of non-Silence” or “Silent and yet not silent at the same time”, or some other such description.

Thoughts do NOT cease, one has thoughts and does not have thoughts at the same time. The world system does not disappear. You are in the world and yet not in it at the same time. It is a state of non-attachment, that is all. One is not bound to thoughts or silence or being, or the world system. None of these disappear, they are both there and not there in a manner that may be imagined but cannot be understood until one has the direct experience for themselves.

And quite frankly....it is no big deal either!!! You may take it or leave it as you like. You might even think in disbelief..."This is IT?" THIS is what the big deal was all about?"

Which, once again, is why Buddha said he did not attain a single thing when he became enlightened.

Someone once asked D. T. Suzuki what enlightenment was like. He responded, "Pretty much just the same as everyday life, only about 5 inches off the ground!" It is the same, but different! No big deal!

[Skip J.]

Thanks Skip!

snip.......It is similar to a person writing a text on the taste of an orange. A reader, who has never tasted an orange, will only have a “belief” in what an orange tastes like according to what he understands from the text. But the person will "know" what an orange tastes like when he finally eats one for himself. When the orange is tasted directly the individual will compare the actual experience with what he read about it. In some cases he will think, "Ohhhhh! THAT is what he, the author, meant!" concerning some specific detail. While concerning other details he might think, "No! I don't agree with that!"

The individual who has just tasted an orange for the first time, will have a different perspective than a person who has eaten hundreds or thousands of oranges. And, of course, each individual will communicate their direct experience of the taste of an orange slightly differently. Some may like the taste, some may dislike it. Some will wax poetic about the taste of an orange, some may paint a picture, while others will be more objective or scientific in their manner of communicating their direct experience.

snip....And quite frankly....it is no big deal either!!! You may take it or leave it as you like. You might even think in disbelief..."This is IT?" THIS is what the big deal was all about?"

Which, once again, is why Buddha said he did not attain a single thing when he became enlightened.

Hey Scott;

A very good description of the issue at hand..... we have previously discussed glasses 1/2 full - and apples and oranges - and a number of other "Americanisms" that most likely translate as meaningless to Hendrik ...... maybe. Don't take this personally, but... and this is a biggie.. there are some "Americanisms" in the common language here of folks born and raised north of Oklahoma City that I could choose to find offensive myself. You have to be from Texas to hear all the Texas jokes out there.

From the looks of Hendrik's website, even though I don't read Chinese, it appears that he may be from a background that utilizes the same 1,000 year old history that you speak of here.

Back to my glass-is-1/2-full idea.... not having any of the advantage of the long term cma background that you and others have here... I enjoy hearing about other interests, attitudes and cultures I cannot travel to and experience for myself.

While I can't read a bit of Chinese, I really did enjoy the many pictures on Hendrik's website. Hey Hendrik... Thanks!

My own experience that I trust most is from watching my instructor running several hundred folks thru a beginner class over a 5 year period. While quite a few folks of Chinese heritage live here, some are from the mainland, some from Hong Kong, and most are from Malaysia. This is no coincidence but is due to all the international oil firms here. There are also folks from the Philippines, England, Canada, France, Germany, Africa, South America and you name it, we got it... Quite a few of the Chinese folks are second generation though, and are very American in attitude and almost anti-traditional culture. A 180 degree mindset for sure.

I would think that perhaps your own classes are very much similar to ours in that respect. So, while I pick and chose what I think about what I hear... I do enjoy some cross-cultural "discourse" from time-to-time.

[Hendrik]

The bottom line is not culture or translation but does the process work.

The process suppose to liberate one from life and death. Does it work?

To the very minimum, has anyone hook up oneself the the brain wave machine and enter to different brain wave state at will? if not , forget about Zhen Qi, forget about Zen, forget about life and death..... one simple cant even do the most minimum.



Why is sifu and lineage and verification important? because one needs to learn what is worked and produce result.