Baduanjin (8-section brocade)

[extrajoseph]

Hi Eugene,

IMO, for a beginner approaching the study of Qigong, it is best to get the external structural components correct before worrying about the internal organs and meridian lines and what they would do, because if the external movements are done correctly then the internal will kick in automatically through the breath.

This movement puts its emphasis on the rotation of the cervical and thoracic vertebra as well as the vertebra of the waist. Through turning and rotating, the blood and the fluid circulation will improve and at the same time the internal organs located in the upper and middle part of the body, like the lung and the heart, will get their internal massage.

By stretching and relaxing and by expanding and contracting the chest and the arms, the lung and the heart will be strengthened as well as the muscular and skeletal components, helping to prevent rheumatic trouble of the joints and four limbs..

The substantial and the insubstantial repetitions of rotating and stretching the body from side to side not only help to strengthen the leg muscles but also help to improve alignment of the shoulders, the back and the hip, preventing any chronic back problems from arising, but only if the movements are done correctly, otherwise more harm is done than good.

Particular attention should be paid not to stress the knees out by pushing them too far forward, or tilting the back too far forward or backward, thus losing the stability and the alignment of the bogy. My take is to work with the seen before worrying about the unseen and work with the structural before worrying about the medical.

Visual comparison is the best way to gain some insights into the working of Qigong, people may tell you lies but their body cannot, we can read their body and be able to see if they are telling the truth or just being the great pretender with their flowery words and acupuncture charts.

[taai gihk yahn]

Visual comparison is the best way to gain some insights into the working of Qigong, people may tell you lies but their body cannot, we can read their body and be able to see if they are telling the truth or just being the great pretender with their flowery words and acupuncture charts.

lol, as opposed to being the Great Prodjeculator, engaging in passive-aggressive attacks when they are not even being engaged in a conversation anymore (even when they were given the Last Word™ )
Eugene: obviously "extraJ" and I were having some drama between ourselves here (all in good fun, of course); it's unfortunate though, that he has now chosen to extrapolate his apparently negative opinion of me onto what I posted to you, to try to turn it into some sort of "I'm right / he's wrong" sort of thing; frankly, if he has an issue with me, that's fine, but to try to drag you into it is just bad form;
anyway, I posted some stuff that I thought would be of interest to you, based on what you had reported - if it's useful for you, great; if not, that's ok as well; but obviously "specialJ" has taken issue with what I posted (and didn't even have the integrity to address me directly on it either - talk about revealing!); since he apparently can't let this whole thing go, I'll just let him continue on his merry way, as he is apparently going to keep personalizing this and derailing the thread yet again

[GeneChing]

Eugene - good on you for staying OT. I hope you don't let this cattiness reflect upon all baduanjin in your eyes.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Eugene,

The remark is not for anyone in particular, it is to point out that the physical is more telling than the verbal and beware of the impressive accessories that the charlatans used, like white Daoist uniforms, medical charts and pretentious philosophical talks, to fool the gullible.

Funny how some people just don't realize that I am talking to you and not to them, it takes an egotistic moron to think everyone are talking about him all the time and no one else. One only has to write a few words and this moron will jump on you and accused you of passive-aggressive attacks with words that are meant for you and not "it".

Again, I have to retreat and say no more, just to keep the peace. What a shame! I have been doing Baduanjing for over 40 years now and studied many versions (north and south) of the same thing from different teachers, I thought I have something to offer, but this environment and this moron makes the task impossible, so goodbye and good luck.

Cheers.

[taai gihk yahn]

Eugene - good on you for staying OT. I hope you don't let this cattiness reflect upon all baduanjin in your eyes.

Gene's right - what a silly thing to have a flame war over - as opposed to all the other really good and valid reasons that usually result in that sort of thing on KFMF!!!

anyway, look Gene, if you read the thread through, you will notice that extraJ was the one who just weirded out big time out of nowhere in the middle of what was on the way to becoming a productive exchange, accusing me of asking trick questions, trying to ambush him and not being forthright when I asked him to clarify a statement he made

so, since it's spring time, and winter hath shook off his silver mantle, I figured, what better way to herald the season of awakening than with a good old KFMF flamerama!

otherwise, you're right, and Eugene should certainly not misconster any of this beyond a couple of guys just being silly with each other!

[Eugene]

@extrajoseph,

I have look at the picture of Shi Yong Yao and The other Master a while.

I have seen a video of Shi Yong Yao one time I think, where he demonstrated his Iron Finger, but thats the only time I saw something of him on you tube.

There are alot of differences, he leans his head more forward looking, and the Master on the right, has his head a lil backward,
and maybe all parts are a lil different when you look a lil while at em.
Alot of things as you mention to look at,

I cant see it from the front view, but it also looks as if Yong Yoa has a straigh back, vertical and the second Master is a lil going forward, well plenty to see hehe

I think they both stand firm and powerfull, I cant see wich is more powerfull.

Alot of things you said, are above my head, I have to read it zillion times to understand it even, ( I also have to translate some english words into dutch to understand it better ) I epreciate your sharing

[GeneChing]

Good point, tgy. Too bad ej has to 'retreat.' Like I always say, 'If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the flame war.'

Back OT, I've seen more variations of baduanjin than any other regimen. I've culled my own method out of this and practice what you might call a jiuduanjin. It's closest to the Shaolin form that is illustrated in the article that I referenced earlier in this thread. I've made some modifications to fit my own particular issues. Mostly it's extractions from the CHQA version and an O-Mei version that Tony Chen showed me.

[taai gihk yahn]

The remark is not for anyone in particular, it is to point out that the physical is more telling than the verbal and beware of the impressive accessories that the charlatans used, like white Daoist uniforms, medical charts and pretentious philosophical talks, to fool the gullible.

I see; so according to your "logic", if someone wears a "white Daoist uniform", employs "medical charts" or uses "pretentious philosophical" terms, then they are a charlatan? hm; well, let's examine that:

first, so you've twice now made pejorative remarks about "medical / acupunture charts"; so what, exactly, is your problem with them? is it:
a) you don't like acupuncture charts in general (e.g. - you don't believe that they are acurate, valid, etc.)
b) you don't like acupuncture charts to be used in relation to qigong practice (e.g. - you don't think that they are relevant)
c) you don't think my particular examples of the lung / LI / linking vessel charts are germaine to the qigong in question
please try to answer this question, because if you are going to make negative comments about the use of acupuncture charts, I'm sure a lot of people here, including myself, are curious as to the reasons for your polemic;

as far as "pretentious philosophical terms" - I'm wondering if there are some specific phrases I have written that you find to be "pretentious"; if you would kindly point these out specifically and explain why you believe them to be pretentious, that would be helpful; or, if you are speaking in general, is it fair to say that you do NOT consider anything I have written to be pretentious?

finally, as far as charlatans wearing the "white Daoist uniform" - do you mean like this one?

Funny how some people just don't realize that I am talking to you and not to them, it takes an egotistic moron to think everyone are talking about him all the time and no one else. One only has to write a few words and this moron will jump on you and accused you of passive-aggressive attacks with words that are meant for you and not "it".

of c'mon already - you WERE talking to me, and you KNOW it - don't try that BS, it's insulting to anyone with an ounce of intelligence - I mean, are you trying to tell me that it was just a COINCIDENCE that in your post immediately following the one where I reference acupuncture charts and use some "Big Words™" (that you probably didn't even understand), you just HAPPENED make the comment about "flowery words and acupuncture charts"? and not only that, but you went back and edited that post specifically to include that comment? really? REALLY?!?
gimmie a break...
also, a moron is, according to a somewhat outmoded and controversial qualification scale, someone with an IQ of 51-70; if you are truly of the opinion that I am a moron, please indicate where exactly what I have posted has given you cause to use this term; or are you just gratuitously insulting me here? which is interesting, considering that for all your polemic against me, you will notice that I have not engaged in any similar ad hominum attacks, nor have I used any sort of pejorative terms to describe you personally - I have only commented on the specific behavior you have demonstrated here: like calling you paranoid for accusing me of trying to trick you and ambush you with my questions, or passive aggressive because of how you attack me indirectly with you crack about "flowery words" and then claim that you were not referring to my post (and it IS passive-aggressive - you may not like the term, or may not understand what it means, and hence you ridicule my use of it, but that's what it is that you are being, simple fact); yet you are the one calling me a "moron", without providing a basis for your use of this term (again, if your are able to specifically point out things I have written the connote my lack of intelligence in terms of any subject matter I have presented, please do so)

Again, I have to retreat and say no more, just to keep the peace. What a shame! I have been doing Baduanjing for over 40 years now and studied many versions (north and south) of the same thing from different teachers, I thought I have something to offer, but this environment and this moron makes the task impossible, so goodbye and good luck.

and now you play the martyr - throwing yourself on your sword and retreating to keep the peace - puh-leeze; spare everyone the sacrificial lamb drama; you're not keeping the peace by leaving - you're just wussing out; well, as Gene said, if you can't take the heat...

but you are right about one thing - it IS a shame; it's a shame that for someone who has been practicing "internal" for 40 years, you show such a surprising lack of self-awareness, and demonstrate a consistent penchant for casting blame onto another person for events of your own making; you claim that I make it impossible for you to offer something, but in fact it is you yourself in your own limitation that creates the impossibility; your hissy-fit attitude further demonstrates your lack of ability to achieve any sort of balanced perspective of how ridiculously you have behaved here from almost the very start, where you TOTALLY misunderstood my intention and, when I explained it to you, instead of reconsidering your stance, you lurched even further into your own delusional polemic (more "flowery words"; if you don't understand them, try a dictionary before you belittle my using them - it's not my fault if you have the vocabulary of a grade schooler and need to stick to mono-syllabics);

by the way, you STILL didn't answer my simple question! which version caused you to feel your "qi" get blocked? since you are obviously aware by now that this is not a trick question, nor an ambush, nor am I interested in telling you that you are doing anything wrong, nor am I withholding my own experience, there really shouldn't be any reason for you NOT to answer the question at this point, right?

[extrajoseph]

@extrajoseph,

I have look at the picture of Shi Yong Yao and The other Master a while.

I have seen a video of Shi Yong Yao one time I think, where he demonstrated his Iron Finger, but thats the only time I saw something of him on you tube.

There are alot of differences, he leans his head more forward looking, and the Master on the right, has his head a lil backward,
and maybe all parts are a lil different when you look a lil while at em.
Alot of things as you mention to look at,

I cant see it from the front view, but it also looks as if Yong Yoa has a straigh back, vertical and the second Master is a lil going forward, well plenty to see hehe

I think they both stand firm and powerfull, I cant see wich is more powerfull.

Alot of things you said, are above my head, I have to read it zillion times to understand it even, ( I also have to translate some english words into dutch to understand it better ) I epreciate your sharing

Hi Eugene,

Master Shi's gongfu is much deeper and you can tell by the stance, he is stable and strong because he can root his body to the ground by aligning it with the gravitational force and that is being vertical and straight (zhongzheng 中正) without sacrificing the curvature of the spine.

Master Sat's gongfu is shallow by comparison because he is not rooted and that is due to his inability to align his body with the gravitational force. The trouble is in his knees and his hip, and as you said he leans a bit too far forward in order to get down.

Master Shi's upper body is open while Master Sat is closed and that is partially caused by the difference in the way the fingers are configured in the front arm and also how the elbow is stretched in the back. Consequently Master Shi's body weight is able to travel downward solidly whereas Master Sat has to hold it up and as a result his qi is blocked in the hip and the knees.

In the higher level of training "the God is in the details", one gets a feeling he is posing for the picture and can't wait for the photographer to finish so he can get up, whereas Master Shi is just going through his pace leisurely.

Since Gene encouraged me to stand the heat, so I have put on my flame suit and is ready for the Mongolian's attack knowing Master Sat is his teacher.

[extrajoseph]

I
by the way, you STILL didn't answer my simple question! which version caused you to feel your "qi" get blocked? since you are obviously aware by now that this is not a trick question, nor an ambush, nor am I interested in telling you that you are doing anything wrong, nor am I withholding my own experience, there really shouldn't be any reason for you NOT to answer the question at this point, right?

I have no desire to answer any of your questions nor to engage you in a flame-war, so just keep on throwing dirt, I'll watch instead.

[taai gihk yahn]

I have no desire to answer any of your questions

lol, you are so dramatic! what's the big deal? why can't you just answer the simple question that I asked, about which version of the posture caused you to feel blocked? you have avoided that from the start, before you had any opinion of me at all; so it's obviously not about me personally - what gives?

nor to engage you in a flame-war, so just keep on throwing dirt, I'll watch instead.

please show me what "dirt" I am throwing! there is no "dirt" - I have addressed every single one of your diatribes, accusations, false claims point by point, demonstrating the error in each; and when i do so, instead of answering them directly to counter my points, you throw out little aphorisms like the above, trying to show how you are so above all this, when in fact you are in it as deep as you can be, but just can't handle it when someone dissects what you write in a way that makes it glaringly obvious how you say things without any basis and then can't back them up!

[taai gihk yahn]

Hi Eugene,

Master Shi's gongfu is much deeper and you can tell by the stance, he is stable and strong because he can root his body to the ground by aligning it with the gravitational force and that is being vertical and straight (zhongzheng 中正) without sacrificing the curvature of the spine.

Master Sat's gongfu is shallow by comparison because he is not rooted and that is due to his inability to align his body with the gravitational force. The trouble is in his knees and his hip, and as you said he leans a bit too far forward in order to get down.

Master Shi's upper body is open while Master Sat is closed and that is partially caused by the difference in the way the fingers are configured in the front arm and also how the elbow is stretched in the back. Consequently Master Shi's body weight is able to travel downward solidly whereas Master Sat has to hold it up and as a result his qi is blocked in the hip and the knees.

In the higher level of training "the God is in the details", one gets a feeling he is posing for the picture and can't wait for the photographer to finish so he can get up, whereas Master Shi is just going through his pace leisurely.

Since Gene encouraged me to stand the heat, so I have put on my flame suit and is ready for the Mongolian's attack knowing Master Sat is his teacher.

lol, like I care what you think of my teacher, as if I am going to have some reaction because you criticise his posture and draw conclusions about his root, his qi, etc.; hey, if that's your opinion, good for you, you are welcome to it; if you get all that from a photograph, even better, it saves you the trouble of having to come to NY to verify your perspective in person; of course, if Master Sat ever has occasion to travel to Montreal for a seminar or some such, I will let you know and then you could perhaps arrange for an opportunity to verify your belief if such is your interest; or not;

of course, I may personally have a different take on Sat's way of doing things, but it is not my job to defend him, he can do just fine on his own; in fact, if extraJ wants, he can contact him directly at http://sathon.net/ and express his opinion directly to Sat - he is always happy to receive constructive criticism;

I will agree with one thing: when Sat took the picture, it was in the middle of February and about 25˚ F w/wind chill making it even colder; so in fact, he was in a hurry to get the photo session over with (he was out there for about 40 min. total in a thin outfit - unfortunately, he had to do it in that weather due to the publishing deadline!); so if he looks a bit uncomfortable, that's the reason

[taai gihk yahn]

extraJ didn't want to answer my question because he is of the opinion that by connecting the last three fingers to the thumb, it "blocks" his "qi" and is therefore an incorrect way of doing the movement;

is that right?

really?

because, if it is, my goodness - all that drama just to avoid telling me that you think the way I do it is incorrect? as if that would upset me or something, or that I would proceed to tell you that your way is wrong or something?

look, if that's what you felt, if that was your assessment of it, then good for you - what can I say except, "ok"; how could I argue that you didn't feel what you felt? if you felt your qi blocked, that's on you; my personal experience, as well as that of others, is different from yours; and I can certainly argue why I prefer that particular method and why I think it is of benefit in its own way in contrast to other versions (not which i think are incorrect, just that yield a different result)

all that drama just to avoid being forthright; wow...

[extrajoseph]

That is why I have not answer your question because you are not at the level where I can communicate with you (I know, it sounds like I am boasting) and if you cannot see the gross mistakes your teacher is making, how can you expect me to make you appreciate the subtle details? It is not about whether it is being forthright or not it is about whether I should waste my time.

You can have as many takes as you like but a posture can be tested because it is something physical and structural, so test your teacher's posture next time you see him, if he is aligned, stable and rooted then your force can travel down to the ground and you can feel it like columns of a building, transmitting its weight to the ground.

I know you will continue to disagree, so lets stop here and you can feel your qi your way and I can test it my way. The gulf is too great for us to bridge at this stage.

[taai gihk yahn]

That is why I have not answer your question because you are not at the level where I can communicate with you (I know, it sounds like I am boasting)

no, it sounds more like delusions of grandeur necessary to reinforce your personal ego-structure; but whatever works for you...

and if you cannot see the gross mistakes your teacher is making, how can you expect me to make you appreciate the subtle details?

that's ok, I'm appreciating appreciating them just fine without you "making me" ; as far as the "gross mistakes" you mention, that's your opinion - I disagree; you will argue that I just don't see it, but considering that I assess and correct postural alignment for a living and have been doing it successfully for over 15 yrs., (meaning that people come for treatment for pain and dysfunction, and consistently leave without it), I think I will trust my own perspective just a bit more than yours (and btw, I know u don't see it, but he's not leaning forwards in the picture, he is rooted, his upper body is open and his "qi" is not blocked in his hips and knees; if you can't see that after 40 yrs. of practice, I'm afraid that it is I who have nothing to offer you that you would be able to appreciate)

It is not about whether it is being forthright or not it is about whether I should waste my time.

yet you have no qualms about "wasting your time" as long as you feel your ego-structure being threatened;

You can have as many takes as you like but a posture can be tested because it is something physical and structural, so test your teacher's posture next time you see him, if he is aligned, stable and rooted then your force can travel down to the ground and you can feel it like columns of a building, transmitting its weight to the ground.

lol, you have no idea what it's like pushing with him...nothing like u describe, it goes infinitely "deeper" than that...

I know you will continue to disagree, so lets stop here and you can feel your qi your way and I can test it my way. The gulf is too great for us to bridge at this stage.

yes, your own level of understanding is far too incomprehensible for me
and btw, you might want to examine these control-freak tendencies you consistently display in regards to your repeatedly dictating the terms under which I should continue to post or not;

NEXT!