Biu Gee differences from one lineage to the next (Augustine Fong)

[SAAMAG]

So I was looking at one of those old tapes from the 80's that you can buy in the back of the kung fu magazines -- you know -- the panther ones?

It was a tape going over the Biu gee section. In looking at his form...the sections were done in a different order than the way I originally was taught. Additionally, there are things like steps added in like the 3 elbows, another grab and turning motion where one hand is open towards the end, and also two kicks at the end.

Can anyone who practices Fong's line give some insight to this? Were some of these things elements that Fong himself added in because he wanted to make sure people gained further skill in some areas? Or was this something that was there with Ho Kam Ming?

Why do you guys think that the different sections are done in different orders? Like the jaam gaan sao section, the three biu sao's to chan jeung, etc, etc??

I suppose this question could be broadened as well as to the fast differences in biu jee from one lineage to the next as well. Most of the SLT and the CK that I see is for the most part the same. But it's BJ where I see the most vast of differences.

[Vajramusti]

So I was looking at one of those old tapes from the 80's that you can buy in the back of the kung fu magazines -- you know -- the panther ones?

((I didn't learn from tapes and I don't look at tapes much))

It was a tape going over the Biu gee section. In looking at his form...the sections were done in a different order than the way I originally was taught. Additionally, there are things like steps added in like the 3 elbows, another grab and turning motion where one hand is open towards the end, and also two kicks at the end.

((I dont know what you learned and who taught you. Many folks who do biu jee didn't learn from Ip man. Ho Kam Ming did and Augustine Fong learned from Ho Kam Ming, The principles are the same-there are differences in details. I speak only for myself- not for lineage or sifu. Stepping in with flying elbows is an important drill. In Fong sifu's forms some drills were thought to be important enough to be put into the forms, specially for folks who may not otherwise learn the drills. The double punch put in slt in a particular section is an early example.It helps develop even power on both sides and is in a section with double biu, han and ding etc.)))

Can anyone who practices Fong's line give some insight to this? Were some of these things elements that Fong himself added in because he wanted to make sure people gained further skill in some areas? Or was this something that was there with Ho Kam Ming?

((See above))

Why do you guys think that the different sections are done in different orders? Like the jaam gaan sao section, the three biu sao's to chan jeung, etc, etc??

(I can't speak for what others do))

I suppose this question could be broadened as well as to the fast differences in biu jee from one lineage to the next as well. Most of the SLT and the CK that I see is for the most part the same. But it's BJ where I see the most vast of differences.

((See above))

joy chaudhuri

[SAAMAG]

((I didn't learn from tapes and I don't look at tapes much))

((I dont know what you learned and who taught you. Many folks who do biu jee didn't learn from Ip man. Ho Kam Ming did and Augustine Fong learned from Ho Kam Ming, The principles are the same-there are differences in details. I speak only for myself- not for lineage or sifu. Stepping in with flying elbows is an important drill. In Fong sifu's forms some drills were thought to be important enough to be put into the forms, specially for folks who may not otherwise learn the drills. The double punch put in slt in a particular section is an early example.It helps develop even power on both sides and is in a section with double biu, han and ding etc.)))

Thanks for posting Joy. But it doesn't matter where you learned from or whether or not you've seen tapes. That was an irrelevant part of the original post which exists just set the catalyst for the question of why the form set different from others? Why are there movements in the set that aren't in others of the same lineage? The WSL line for example doesn't have some the same movements nor is the form set done in the same order or manner. This isn't an "attack" on the line, just a general question. There's nothing wrong with adding in kicks or forward steps or another throw or grappling method, just wanted to see the reasons for doing it. You know...sharing knowledge...that kind of thing? So you're saying that some things were added in because either HKM or AF felt it would be beneficial to have those drills in there? What about the kicks at the end? Was that something that you think was present when it was taught to HKM?

The final question was a general one not for YOU to expound on other lines but for people to discuss and learn about the varying ways that biu jee is done. I was hoping for general conversation as to how each of us was taught biu jee and subsequently the differences in application.

[Vajramusti]

HKM and AF- principles are the same...variations in teaching methods.

I can't comment on WSL's biu jee and it is upto others to comment on what they do.


I forget or didn't know - who did you learn from?

joy chaudhuri

[SAAMAG]

I'll shoot you a PM

[Vajramusti]

I'll shoot you a PM

THX. Joy C

[LoneTiger108]

I suppose this question could be broadened as well as to the fast differences in biu jee from one lineage to the next as well. Most of the SLT and the CK that I see is for the most part the same. But it's BJ where I see the most vast of differences.

Personally, I think that Biu Jee is something of a 'personal' form. Meaning that it will differ from person to person depending on how they implement their understanding of SLT & CK. Maybe this is what was meant in the past when it was mostly referred to as the 'secret form'.

FWIW I also heard that Ip Man taught very few people this form, but I couldn't say for sure exactly who (and I don't believe anyone else can either!)

[chusauli]

Personal form? Secret? Advanced?

I don't think so. The 3 forms can be practiced as one long set. If we look at Yik Kam's WCK, we already see the seed elements of the 3 sets in one long set. WCK's entire curriculum is just for beginners. Application is for the "advanced".

All the hearsay stories of the 2nd and 3rd generation are funny, especially when they only have pieces of the complete system.

The order doesn't matter. Nor do signature moves.

[SAAMAG]

Personal form? Secret? Advanced?

I don't think so. The 3 forms can be practiced as one long set. If we look at Yik Kam's WCK, we already see the seed elements of the 3 sets in one long set. WCK's entire curriculum is just for beginners. Application is for the "advanced".

All the hearsay stories of the 2nd and 3rd generation are funny, especially when they only have pieces of the complete system.

The order doesn't matter. Nor do signature moves.

That's funny you mention this, as that's how I practice them...as one long form set.

I agree as well that there's nothing secret about the form, hell most of the moves are the same basic Hand techniques just grouped together. The only thing in the form that's in the form that isn't part of the basic techniques is tw grabbing moves and the ending sequence.

[Ironmike]

Wing Chun is a system of principles, as long as the principles of the form are covered it really doesn't matter what order they come in, as long as they are expressed. The end result is " can you fight? I believe in my Sifu, if I didn't then I would fined another. Worrying about what someone else is doing is not a principle of little idea. Instead of worrying what my Wing Chun brothers are doing, I'm going to go work on my punching.

[bennyvt]

yeh you can even see wsl in different videos doing different sequences and doing more or less of some moves, i tend to practice each move twenty times. So you are only using the order to remember the next move. But most vt bj forms are the same moves but people do more of some moves then others. I have noticed lun gai does a kwan sao in his which is a little different.

[LoneTiger108]

Personal form? Secret? Advanced? I don't think so. The 3 forms can be practiced as one long set. If we look at Yik Kam's WCK, we already see the seed elements of the 3 sets in one long set. WCK's entire curriculum is just for beginners. Application is for the "advanced".

To reiterate Robert, I personally feel Biu Jee is a personal form to me, and the stories of the past I mentioned which have commented on it being a secret (well over 30 years ago now!) is not what I believe today. Although I do not find the stories funny.

As for the 'one set' idea I too have practised the same, as I too was taught that idea. What I was trying to do was keep in line with what I thought the tread was about (basically variations in Ip Mans Biu Jee) and Ip Man divided the sets for a reason IMHO. And it wasn't JUST to make money!

All the hearsay stories of the 2nd and 3rd generation are funny, especially when they only have pieces of the complete system.

Again I feel you looking down on us mere admirers of Ip Man! Nevermind. You have your complete system.

The order doesn't matter. Nor do signature moves.

I would HAVE to disagree. Especially for new students.

I ask everyone to consider that if the forms ARE a blueprint, if you like, of Wing Chun, would you go to page two or three first?

Personally, I KNOW you could, but what I'm trying to get at here is that you will ultimately create a different student. And, as has been tested generations before, some will never even get to know SLT, or disregard it as inferior.

Truth is, without SLT there is no CK. No CK no BJ. Basically there is no Wing Chun. THAT IMHO is what should bind us all together.

[chusauli]

I would HAVE to disagree. Especially for new students.

I ask everyone to consider that if the forms ARE a blueprint, if you like, of Wing Chun, would you go to page two or three first?

Personally, I KNOW you could, but what I'm trying to get at here is that you will ultimately create a different student. And, as has been tested generations before, some will never even get to know SLT, or disregard it as inferior.

Truth is, without SLT there is no CK. No CK no BJ. Basically there is no Wing Chun. THAT IMHO is what should bind us all together.

Spencer, I was referring to the one set, Biu Jee, the order of the set varies from student to student of Yip Man. I am not speaking of the 3 forms.

But to bring it up, personally, I think it might be wise to teach SNT, BJ, then CK, as opposed to the way it is currently taught.

[TenTigers]

Vankuen-didn't you learn WCK and Hung-Ga from Sifu Michael Manganiello?
I seem to remember you..or perhaps it was someone who reminded me of you!
Forgive my memory...I'm gettin' on in years!

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . .
Truth is, without SLT there is no CK. No CK no BJ. Basically there is no Wing Chun. THAT IMHO is what should bind us all together.

Not necessarily. The Famous Leung Jan made Gu Lo Wing Chun with no SLT, CK, BJ and it's still WC.