Biu Gee differences from one lineage to the next (Augustine Fong)

[SAAMAG]

So I was looking at one of those old tapes from the 80's that you can buy in the back of the kung fu magazines -- you know -- the panther ones?

It was a tape going over the Biu gee section. In looking at his form...the sections were done in a different order than the way I originally was taught. Additionally, there are things like steps added in like the 3 elbows, another grab and turning motion where one hand is open towards the end, and also two kicks at the end.

Can anyone who practices Fong's line give some insight to this? Were some of these things elements that Fong himself added in because he wanted to make sure people gained further skill in some areas? Or was this something that was there with Ho Kam Ming?

Why do you guys think that the different sections are done in different orders? Like the jaam gaan sao section, the three biu sao's to chan jeung, etc, etc??

I suppose this question could be broadened as well as to the fast differences in biu jee from one lineage to the next as well. Most of the SLT and the CK that I see is for the most part the same. But it's BJ where I see the most vast of differences.

[Vajramusti]

So I was looking at one of those old tapes from the 80's that you can buy in the back of the kung fu magazines -- you know -- the panther ones?

((I didn't learn from tapes and I don't look at tapes much))

It was a tape going over the Biu gee section. In looking at his form...the sections were done in a different order than the way I originally was taught. Additionally, there are things like steps added in like the 3 elbows, another grab and turning motion where one hand is open towards the end, and also two kicks at the end.

((I dont know what you learned and who taught you. Many folks who do biu jee didn't learn from Ip man. Ho Kam Ming did and Augustine Fong learned from Ho Kam Ming, The principles are the same-there are differences in details. I speak only for myself- not for lineage or sifu. Stepping in with flying elbows is an important drill. In Fong sifu's forms some drills were thought to be important enough to be put into the forms, specially for folks who may not otherwise learn the drills. The double punch put in slt in a particular section is an early example.It helps develop even power on both sides and is in a section with double biu, han and ding etc.)))

Can anyone who practices Fong's line give some insight to this? Were some of these things elements that Fong himself added in because he wanted to make sure people gained further skill in some areas? Or was this something that was there with Ho Kam Ming?

((See above))

Why do you guys think that the different sections are done in different orders? Like the jaam gaan sao section, the three biu sao's to chan jeung, etc, etc??

(I can't speak for what others do))

I suppose this question could be broadened as well as to the fast differences in biu jee from one lineage to the next as well. Most of the SLT and the CK that I see is for the most part the same. But it's BJ where I see the most vast of differences.

((See above))

joy chaudhuri

[SAAMAG]

((I didn't learn from tapes and I don't look at tapes much))

((I dont know what you learned and who taught you. Many folks who do biu jee didn't learn from Ip man. Ho Kam Ming did and Augustine Fong learned from Ho Kam Ming, The principles are the same-there are differences in details. I speak only for myself- not for lineage or sifu. Stepping in with flying elbows is an important drill. In Fong sifu's forms some drills were thought to be important enough to be put into the forms, specially for folks who may not otherwise learn the drills. The double punch put in slt in a particular section is an early example.It helps develop even power on both sides and is in a section with double biu, han and ding etc.)))

Thanks for posting Joy. But it doesn't matter where you learned from or whether or not you've seen tapes. That was an irrelevant part of the original post which exists just set the catalyst for the question of why the form set different from others? Why are there movements in the set that aren't in others of the same lineage? The WSL line for example doesn't have some the same movements nor is the form set done in the same order or manner. This isn't an "attack" on the line, just a general question. There's nothing wrong with adding in kicks or forward steps or another throw or grappling method, just wanted to see the reasons for doing it. You know...sharing knowledge...that kind of thing? So you're saying that some things were added in because either HKM or AF felt it would be beneficial to have those drills in there? What about the kicks at the end? Was that something that you think was present when it was taught to HKM?

The final question was a general one not for YOU to expound on other lines but for people to discuss and learn about the varying ways that biu jee is done. I was hoping for general conversation as to how each of us was taught biu jee and subsequently the differences in application.

[Vajramusti]

HKM and AF- principles are the same...variations in teaching methods.

I can't comment on WSL's biu jee and it is upto others to comment on what they do.


I forget or didn't know - who did you learn from?

joy chaudhuri

[SAAMAG]

I'll shoot you a PM

[Vajramusti]

I'll shoot you a PM

THX. Joy C

[LoneTiger108]

I suppose this question could be broadened as well as to the fast differences in biu jee from one lineage to the next as well. Most of the SLT and the CK that I see is for the most part the same. But it's BJ where I see the most vast of differences.

Personally, I think that Biu Jee is something of a 'personal' form. Meaning that it will differ from person to person depending on how they implement their understanding of SLT & CK. Maybe this is what was meant in the past when it was mostly referred to as the 'secret form'.

FWIW I also heard that Ip Man taught very few people this form, but I couldn't say for sure exactly who (and I don't believe anyone else can either!)

[chusauli]

Personal form? Secret? Advanced?

I don't think so. The 3 forms can be practiced as one long set. If we look at Yik Kam's WCK, we already see the seed elements of the 3 sets in one long set. WCK's entire curriculum is just for beginners. Application is for the "advanced".

All the hearsay stories of the 2nd and 3rd generation are funny, especially when they only have pieces of the complete system.

The order doesn't matter. Nor do signature moves.

[SAAMAG]

Personal form? Secret? Advanced?

I don't think so. The 3 forms can be practiced as one long set. If we look at Yik Kam's WCK, we already see the seed elements of the 3 sets in one long set. WCK's entire curriculum is just for beginners. Application is for the "advanced".

All the hearsay stories of the 2nd and 3rd generation are funny, especially when they only have pieces of the complete system.

The order doesn't matter. Nor do signature moves.

That's funny you mention this, as that's how I practice them...as one long form set.

I agree as well that there's nothing secret about the form, hell most of the moves are the same basic Hand techniques just grouped together. The only thing in the form that's in the form that isn't part of the basic techniques is tw grabbing moves and the ending sequence.

[Ironmike]

Wing Chun is a system of principles, as long as the principles of the form are covered it really doesn't matter what order they come in, as long as they are expressed. The end result is " can you fight? I believe in my Sifu, if I didn't then I would fined another. Worrying about what someone else is doing is not a principle of little idea. Instead of worrying what my Wing Chun brothers are doing, I'm going to go work on my punching.

[bennyvt]

yeh you can even see wsl in different videos doing different sequences and doing more or less of some moves, i tend to practice each move twenty times. So you are only using the order to remember the next move. But most vt bj forms are the same moves but people do more of some moves then others. I have noticed lun gai does a kwan sao in his which is a little different.

[SAAMAG]

Gwun sao huh? That's interesting. Usually you don't see that until the dummy form. how does he teach the application of gwun sao?

I like the movement, but it's generally it's not a primary type of movement for me

[chusauli]

In Yip Man/Ng Chan's version of BJ, they do Kwun Sao in the set. It follows Gaun Sao section.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gwun sao huh? That's interesting. Usually you don't see that until the dummy form. how does he teach the application of gwun sao?

I like the movement, but it's generally it's not a primary type of movement for me

Kwan sao ( however you spell it) is used ( in a variation) by the Dog Brothers in their empty hand VS the knife curriculum.

[SAAMAG]

I've always wished that more of the wing chun kicks were prevelant in the forms. Hence one of the reasons why I was intriqued with the fact that A.Fong added them into his forms both with the CK and the BT sets.

I think that while wing chun as a whole mainly capitalizes on the hands that the foot development could have been more prevelant in the boxing forms. I've heard some people talk about SLT having "footwork" in it, and that it indirectly teaches the proper kicking stucture, which I can see.

Chum Kiu obviously has the front and side kick in it. The biu gee form set I've seen with and without kicks. I learned the bowing movement w/ prayer palm overhead as the final movement in the form, but I liked how Fong ended it with the jing and wang gurk. It seemed to fit.

But with the myriad of available gurk fot, I'd think there'd be more there. I mean we've got jing, wang, bong, jut, sut, tiu, and even circling (heun) kicks available...and yet we see very few explicite examples in the boxing sets. I've been comptemplating making my own "lin wai gurk" set to practice them in a prearranged manner. Hmmm...