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Thread: Biu Gee differences from one lineage to the next (Augustine Fong)

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vankuen View Post
    I've always wished that more of the wing chun kicks were prevelant in the forms. Hence one of the reasons why I was intriqued with the fact that A.Fong added them into his forms both with the CK and the BT sets.

    I think that while wing chun as a whole mainly capitalizes on the hands that the foot development could have been more prevelant in the boxing forms. I've heard some people talk about SLT having "footwork" in it, and that it indirectly teaches the proper kicking stucture, which I can see.

    Chum Kiu obviously has the front and side kick in it. The biu gee form set I've seen with and without kicks. I learned the bowing movement w/ prayer palm overhead as the final movement in the form, but I liked how Fong ended it with the jing and wang gurk. It seemed to fit.
    IF WC was a "form based" system or a system that is supposed to have forms as the core of the teaching then yes, that makes sense.
    The fact that not all the techniques of WC are in the forms means a lot.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    IF WC was a "form based" system or a system that is supposed to have forms as the core of the teaching then yes, that makes sense.
    The fact that not all the techniques of WC are in the forms means a lot.
    Well I'm not saying that they "have to" be in the forms, but since the forms are the "blueprint" of the system's core mechanics then one would think that kicking mechanics would be more prevelant.

    Obviously one can learn to utilize techniques without forms at all...as that is the way I've trained just about all other fight methods...just making an observation is all.
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vankuen View Post
    Well I'm not saying that they "have to" be in the forms, but since the forms are the "blueprint" of the system's core mechanics then one would think that kicking mechanics would be more prevelant.

    Obviously one can learn to utilize techniques without forms at all...as that is the way I've trained just about all other fight methods...just making an observation is all.
    But are forms the blue print of WC? I know they are NOW, for some, but was that always the case?
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    But are forms the blue print of WC? I know they are NOW, for some, but was that always the case?

    That's an interesting question. When on my 1st trip to LA, Gary Lam showed me all the hand forms within 3 days, I then realized that they cannot be that important if he showed them to me that fast, it made me take another look at it. I think the forms are the basic foundation, along with the drills. We have SNT level drills, CK level drills and so forth, as the drills/chi sau bring the forms alive. The drills and chi sau are the blueprint IMO, as you need a partner that is learning the samething to gain the skills. The forms can help you in a way to fine tune certain individual mechanics and structures that fail when doing the drills. For e.g. when doing the laap sau drill I was told I had a lazy wu sau, so I concentrated on the wu/bong combo in the 1st section of Chum Kiu, low & beyold soon the wu was fixed and not so lazy in the drill, now when gor sau'g it's right where it should be, ready to fire.

    James

  5. #20
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    Forms serve a purpose, of that there is no doubt and forms can be even used to train fighting, though not by the vast majority.
    I think that, and history tells us this, forms were never a major part of MA training, but they were A PART.
    It's a given that one can learn ANY MA without forms but I have noticed that our MA becomes "better" with forms training.
    Its a given that one can learn how to fight with ANY MA without forms, but forms can help one become a better fighter ( the best fighters I know all have great form).
    I think that forms change as we progress through our MA life, from a thing we "had to do" to one we choose to do and enjoy, one we use to unlock the more profound things of our MA.
    I don't think that there is a set way for forms to be done after they are taught, I think that forms can be changed and done differently for different reasons.
    The problem with forms is when someone things A is right and B is wrong when A and B may be two different things that happen to share some of the ame moves.
    No MA should be so complicated that it can't be learned quickly, I mean, after all, of what use is a MA that needs years to be effective?
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    Personal form? Secret? Advanced? I don't think so. The 3 forms can be practiced as one long set. If we look at Yik Kam's WCK, we already see the seed elements of the 3 sets in one long set. WCK's entire curriculum is just for beginners. Application is for the "advanced".
    To reiterate Robert, I personally feel Biu Jee is a personal form to me, and the stories of the past I mentioned which have commented on it being a secret (well over 30 years ago now!) is not what I believe today. Although I do not find the stories funny.

    As for the 'one set' idea I too have practised the same, as I too was taught that idea. What I was trying to do was keep in line with what I thought the tread was about (basically variations in Ip Mans Biu Jee) and Ip Man divided the sets for a reason IMHO. And it wasn't JUST to make money!

    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    All the hearsay stories of the 2nd and 3rd generation are funny, especially when they only have pieces of the complete system.
    Again I feel you looking down on us mere admirers of Ip Man! Nevermind. You have your complete system.

    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    The order doesn't matter. Nor do signature moves.
    I would HAVE to disagree. Especially for new students.

    I ask everyone to consider that if the forms ARE a blueprint, if you like, of Wing Chun, would you go to page two or three first?

    Personally, I KNOW you could, but what I'm trying to get at here is that you will ultimately create a different student. And, as has been tested generations before, some will never even get to know SLT, or disregard it as inferior.

    Truth is, without SLT there is no CK. No CK no BJ. Basically there is no Wing Chun. THAT IMHO is what should bind us all together.
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vankuen View Post
    I've always wished that more of the wing chun kicks were prevelant in the forms. Hence one of the reasons why I was intriqued with the fact that A.Fong added them into his forms both with the CK and the BT sets.

    I think that while wing chun as a whole mainly capitalizes on the hands that the foot development could have been more prevelant in the boxing forms. I've heard some people talk about SLT having "footwork" in it, and that it indirectly teaches the proper kicking stucture, which I can see.
    Adding 'kicking' ideas to the forms would be fine IMO, as long as nothing is taken away and you're honest with your students.

    Out of interest, what family have you heard of kicking being 'in' the SLT form?
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Adding 'kicking' ideas to the forms would be fine IMO, as long as nothing is taken away and you're honest with your students.
    I wouldn't be adding it to one of the preexisting forms, but rather just making another set for myself to be able to practice the kicks in a standalone fashion.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Out of interest, what family have you heard of kicking being 'in' the SLT form?
    I read it somewhere...don't remember where. But from what I recall the idea was that the stance of YGKYM set the mechanic of the kick...i.e...the stance was how the kick was to be done if one leg was raised doing the kick.
    Last edited by SAAMAG; 03-18-2010 at 01:55 PM.
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    But are forms the blue print of WC? I know they are NOW, for some, but was that always the case?
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Forms serve a purpose, of that there is no doubt and forms can be even used to train fighting, though not by the vast majority.
    I think that, and history tells us this, forms were never a major part of MA training, but they were A PART.
    It's a given that one can learn ANY MA without forms but I have noticed that our MA becomes "better" with forms training.
    Its a given that one can learn how to fight with ANY MA without forms, but forms can help one become a better fighter ( the best fighters I know all have great form).
    I think that forms change as we progress through our MA life, from a thing we "had to do" to one we choose to do and enjoy, one we use to unlock the more profound things of our MA.
    I don't think that there is a set way for forms to be done after they are taught, I think that forms can be changed and done differently for different reasons.
    The problem with forms is when someone things A is right and B is wrong when A and B may be two different things that happen to share some of the ame moves.
    No MA should be so complicated that it can't be learned quickly, I mean, after all, of what use is a MA that needs years to be effective?
    I use the term blueprint to signify something that lays the groundwork for which the rest of the process is based upon. I.E. the forms comprise of the system's core techniques and teach us from a proprioceptive sense. The application of course is learnt with partners through drills and the like. The ability to use the system successfully is a byproduct of all the elements of training.

    Does that make more sense? So while I'm not saying that forms show you everything, I look at them like my toolbox. Yes, we learn other techniques like the tai sut for example in drills and applications, but since they are one of the tools why not stick it in the toolbox?

    Of course we're in agreeance on whether forms are necessary to fight--they are not, but are valuable in the a number of other ways when talking about gung fu.
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    I would HAVE to disagree. Especially for new students.

    I ask everyone to consider that if the forms ARE a blueprint, if you like, of Wing Chun, would you go to page two or three first?

    Personally, I KNOW you could, but what I'm trying to get at here is that you will ultimately create a different student. And, as has been tested generations before, some will never even get to know SLT, or disregard it as inferior.

    Truth is, without SLT there is no CK. No CK no BJ. Basically there is no Wing Chun. THAT IMHO is what should bind us all together.

    Spencer, I was referring to the one set, Biu Jee, the order of the set varies from student to student of Yip Man. I am not speaking of the 3 forms.

    But to bring it up, personally, I think it might be wise to teach SNT, BJ, then CK, as opposed to the way it is currently taught.

  11. #26
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    Vankuen-didn't you learn WCK and Hung-Ga from Sifu Michael Manganiello?
    I seem to remember you..or perhaps it was someone who reminded me of you!
    Forgive my memory...I'm gettin' on in years!
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  12. #27
    No no, wrong guy. I learned WCK originally from my stepbrother who trained in Hawaii. Later I trained in qingang quan and wu xing quan. I traded with a lot of other wing chun guys until recent. I'm currently working with another sifu to try and find a softer side to my wing chun.
    "I don't know if anyone is known with the art of "sitting on your couch" here, but in my eyes it is also to be a martial art.

    It is the art of avoiding dangerous situations. It helps you to avoid a dangerous situation by not actually being there. So lets say there is a dangerous situation going on somewhere other than your couch. You are safely seated on your couch so you have in a nutshell "difused" the situation."

  13. #28
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    oy-vey! I was confusing you with HuangKaiVun!
    Dyslexics
    of the World,
    Untie!
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    Spencer, I was referring to the one set, Biu Jee, the order of the set varies from student to student of Yip Man. I am not speaking of the 3 forms.
    I must have got confused here...

    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    The 3 forms can be practiced as one long set.
    I also find it intriguing that you would change the order of the forms, any reason/s?

    Quote Originally Posted by vankuen View Post
    I wouldn't be adding it to one of the preexisting forms, but rather just making another set for myself to be able to practice the kicks in a standalone fashion.
    Sounds similar to what some people have already done to be honest. Have a search on Wing Chun Kicking Forms, as I believe they're quite popular! Here's my Uncles version (personally I do not know if he 'created' this or inherited it)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR0d0Q3iRws

    Quote Originally Posted by vankuen View Post
    But from what I recall the idea was that the stance of YGKYM set the mechanic of the kick...i.e...the stance was how the kick was to be done if one leg was raised doing the kick.
    I'd say yes and no.

    There is an old method called single leg SLT which I believe you're talking about here. It's something I looked at alot as I was definitely a legwork type of guy. But that's just it, we always referred to legwork as legwork, kicking was something else.
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  15. #30
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    Back on subject!

    Here's Uncle Gohs Biu Jee, which is a fair representation of Lee Shing family, although still there are differences

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lZVW...eature=related
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

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