Biu Gee differences from one lineage to the next (Augustine Fong)

[chusauli]

I must have got confused here...

I think so.

I also find it intriguing that you would change the order of the forms, any reason/s?

Biu Jee is very similar to SNT in small body movement and extension. So I reason to follow SNT with BJ, then CK and MYJ have bigger body movement.

Sounds similar to what some people have already done to be honest. Have a search on Wing Chun Kicking Forms, as I believe they're quite popular! Here's my Uncles version (personally I do not know if he 'created' this or inherited it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR0d0Q3iRws

Looks like an extrapolation of the Jong and Chum Kiu, then with some fancy kicking combinations. Looks like a redundant set or a demo form. Its hardly brilliant or original. Everything is already in the WCK 3 sets and Jong.

[k gledhill]

Bil Gee is a way to recover aka save your ar&e....its not meant to go "out the door" because your showing all the guys you want to fight how to escape or mess with your thinking...

doing a form is one thing knowing what they are for another...if people think its all finger darting out fine let them...deadly fingers from hell .... stay back or i unleash the fingers take that !! poke poke poke ..oh yeah !! I counter poke you with delayed death thumb ...

[SAAMAG]

That's how I understand it to be as well. Emergency techniques for when "real life" happens and you're stuff doesn't go exactly as planned.

For example, one of the "escapes" that I extrapolated from the form to regain the center was if someone pressed your elbow in at the tricep, you could biu gee from underneath the elbow to control the pressing arm--perhaps going into a lap or gam or whatever.

Of course people have shown applications of the gwai jarn / jang to be also a way to smash into someone's guard, attack the limb, attack the body at extreme close range, or to escape a lapel grab using the jarn with the chor ma.

So there's a lot of things that can be taken from the form. At the same time though, I've seen some crazy interpretations that look nothing like the form sequence that it is claimed to come from.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . .
Truth is, without SLT there is no CK. No CK no BJ. Basically there is no Wing Chun. THAT IMHO is what should bind us all together.

Not necessarily. The Famous Leung Jan made Gu Lo Wing Chun with no SLT, CK, BJ and it's still WC.

[Phil Redmond]

All real fights are an emergency.

[chusauli]

Yup, there is no need for sets, perhaps only the movements in between them are necessary and how they are used.

[YungChun]

Yup, there is no need for sets, perhaps only the movements in between them are necessary and how they are used.

Do you teach the sets?

[LoneTiger108]

Not necessarily. The Famous Leung Jan made Gu Lo Wing Chun with no SLT, CK, BJ and it's still WC.

Exactly my point! He MADE (what we know now) Gulao WCK for the rich merchants in the area at that time.

He made his point system from something, I wouldn't think it came from thin air or another style for that matter.

[SAAMAG]

Do you teach the sets?

I thought he said he does teach them, but with the order being SLT, BJ, CK. The point is that while you don't need them, there's nothing wrong with using them to ingrain the techniques and core movements, get some basic exercise, and make it a bit easier for someone to remember the various movements without having to practice them individually and accidently "forget" one.

[YungChun]

I thought he said he does teach them, but with the order being SLT, BJ, CK. The point is that while you don't need them, there's nothing wrong with using them to ingrain the movements, get some basic exercise, and make it a bit easier for someone to remember the various movements without having to practice them individually and accidently "forget" one.

I think the forms are underrated.. I actually hate form work but in my own experience I found that they do help lay a foundation for later skill building. Could that be done without a form, sure but it would be more tedious IMO having to say, ok now we're going to cover point 37 of chapter 2...and all those little details in the forms..

On the other hand.. I think folks take the forms too literally..and try to look like some abstract idea the form teaches and then try and fight like that... Folks do this at different levels, but think more obviously folks would never stand in YGKYM with a Tan sticking out from SLT and fight like that right?

But folks still get caught up trying to look like a form...and not just be loose and relax and move the way you need to instead of how you think you're suppose to... By that time all attributes will be second nature and anything that isn't is irrelevant. Folks need better coaching for sparring or fighting to de-form them and focus on tactics and natural movement-which is where the WCK will fit in.

[chusauli]

Do you teach the sets?

I teach both the Yip Man sets and Gu Lao WCK.

You should try an experiment of teaching WCK with and without sets with a few students.

Many times, depending on the practitioner, I may teach the 3 forms slowly as they can catch it, as they are secondary to the application. For some who are forms oriented, I can show the the sets in relatively short time. But in both cases, I stress the application more.

Advanced practitioners from other systems often come to visit me - the last thing they want to learn or see is SNT. They want to see the attributes and training from WCK, then they go back to the fundamental training.

Most of what is wrong in WCK these days is a lack of important basics - I see way too much locked stance with toes in, no movement of the pelvis, buttocks, hips, "S" shaped posture, slouching, hunchback, sway back, overemphasis on shoulder development...etc. Correcting these mistakes is what is more important than form.

[chusauli]

I thought he said he does teach them, but with the order being SLT, BJ, CK. The point is that while you don't need them, there's nothing wrong with using them to ingrain the techniques and core movements, get some basic exercise, and make it a bit easier for someone to remember the various movements without having to practice them individually and accidently "forget" one.

I do teach them in the traditional order, but I speculate that perhaps teaching BJ second would be better in some ways.

Chinese like to teach dialogue and poems. Forms are a reflection of that, but neither helps your conversation.

[YungChun]

Correcting these mistakes is what is more important than form.

If the form mechanics are wrong then why teach them that way? "Form" should mean the mechanic/tool you are going to use.

I do teach them in the traditional order, but I speculate that perhaps teaching BJ second would be better in some ways.

So recovery and elbow cheats sans footwork first? Yikes..

CK is SLT in motion.. They share the same ideas.. BJ departs and extends from the idea in the first two..

[SAAMAG]

I think the forms are underrated.. I actually hate form work but in my own experience I found that they do help lay a foundation for later skill building. Could that be done without a form, sure but it would be more tedious IMO having to say, ok now we're going to cover point 37 of chapter 2...and all those little details in the forms..

On the other hand.. I think folks take the forms too literally..and try to look like some abstract idea the form teaches and then try and fight like that... Folks do this at different levels, but think more obviously folks would never stand in YGKYM with a Tan sticking out from SLT and fight like that right?

But folks still get caught up trying to look like a form...and not just be loose and relax and move the way you need to instead of how you think you're suppose to... By that time all attributes will be second nature and anything that isn't is irrelevant. Folks need better coaching for sparring or fighting to de-form them and focus on tactics and natural movement-which is where the WCK will fit in.

I get what you're saying. The forms aren't meant to be done "exactly"--especially since they're just grouped together in a pattern. Fighting doesn't happen that way as you stated.

I just made another thread discussing the things that can be learnt from the three seeds...somewhat relevant since I'm using the forms to cite various movements and how I ended up with those applications.

I practice my forms several times a day. They don't take up much room, and they don't take too long (unless I'm doing them in a more relaxed and "internal" way). So I get up, go through the three boxing sets. Do them a few times throughout the day (even at work). I'll do pieces of them throughout the day as well. At night I do them several times in their entirety before bed. I have to agree that it does help tremendously compared to when I didn't do them as often.

[chusauli]

If the form mechanics are wrong then why teach them that way? "Form" should mean the mechanic/tool you are going to use.

So recovery and elbow cheats sans footwork first? Yikes..

CK is SLT in motion.. They share the same ideas.. BJ departs and extends from the idea in the first two..

I agree, why should the proper mechanics not be taught first? That would make WCK better. I don't teach the forms mechanics without correct body connection and alignment, but youtube is filled with many that do.

Form is the proper mechanic and tool, but so few have it. Their chest is sunken, shoulders rounded, profile looks like an "S", posture poor. Its lame.

Jim, footwork should be taught on day one, so I don't see your point. You don't learn these from the forms do you? You train them separately and in partner and line drills. Why do you need a form to teach that for?? So your comment of "So recovery and elbow cheats sans footwork first? Yikes.." is irrelevant.

I say try it - try a long set with SNT, CK, BJ, then switch the order of SNT, BJ, CK. You'll see what I mean. BJ is not more advanced than CK...you were just taught that way.