Is San Shou the Appropriate Full-contact Expression for Kung Fu?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Buakaw seemed to adjust very nicely to the grabbing and throwing.

[HumbleWCGuy]

As I said, this might be ethnocentric on the part of the Chinese, but I don't think that they care about competing outside of SS rules. I think that it is definitely ethnocentric on our parts to assume that K1 is the pinnacle of fighting success in kickboxing. Thais would probably disagree calling it a sloppy knock-off of MT.

[Pork Chop]

As I said, this might be ethnocentric on the part of the Chinese, but I don't think that they care about competing outside of SS rules. I think that it is definitely ethnocentric on our parts to assume that K1 is the pinnacle of fighting success in kickboxing. Thais would probably disagree calling it a sloppy knock-off of MT.

i'm a k1 fan, but nowhere did i say that it was the pinnacle of fighting.

i guess you missed the point where i said that they haven't done well in shootboxing either.

in fact, the last (only) time China fought full rules muay thai was the last time that muay thai crushed them (pretty sure it was at the king's cup) though one or two individuals had good performances.

the chinese also refuse to fight in the other major international stand-up fighting event, with fighters from all over the world (every continent represented) and shows all over Europe, the Amsterdam-based It's Showtime.

say what you want about K1 (and defacto It's Showtime), but it's a stand-up fighting format that's good enough for boxers, japanese kickboxers, dutch kickboxers, japanese karateka, tae kwon do-ists, american kickboxers, mma guys, and basically every other striking-based martial art out there. If the other 3 billion people in the world are gathering together to do something, maybe they're not the ones being jingoistic and ethnocentric. that being said, props to the chinese sanda guys who've taken a stab at it; but i laugh at the suggestion that the only reason they haven't "dominated" like they've "dominated" the events inside of china is because they don't care.

This is what happens when a muay thai legend takes a san shou fight last minute at the asia games.

The guy I really want to see in sanda is the guy in blue, the old guy in red is a hall of famer that fought dekkers way back.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Care to add some references?

[Pork Chop]

Care to add some references?

actually i was quoting someone off of the k1-fans forum who said it was King's Cup event in 2002 put on by onesongchai and that the chinese lost 4 to 1.
as far as finding links backing that up...
lkfmdc had a running article on the chinese vs thailand series before he changed his site.
that crane50megs.com guy had a HUGE history between the two, but his site's since been labeled malware, so can't get to his site anymore.
the onesongchai website probably has something about it but it's all in Thai.
muaythaionline.org has event listings going back to 2000, but none of the Thailand vs China events (which goes to show what a priority it is for most muay thai folks).
Otherwise, I can't find much on it, but i know for sure there was at least one event where the chinese as a whole lost.
I'm sure the info's out there.

I'm more curious if you can find any links of mainland Chinese Sanda fighters fighting full rules muay thai and being successful.

Wish Bao Ligao fought outside of china, that dude would be an instant star in Europe, Japan, or Thailand. EDIT: forgot Bao DID fight in Bangkok in 2003 and scored a KO. love that guy. but i dont know how the rest of the 2003 event went either.

[HumbleWCGuy]

One thing that I will concede is that I think that amateur SS is ridiculous without knee strikes. I think that it hurts the pros who come up in it. The football style tackles just seem to get people in trouble.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is what happens when a muay thai legend takes a san shou fight last minute at the asia games.

The guy I really want to see in sanda is the guy in blue, the old guy in red is a hall of famer that fought dekkers way back.

**** !!!
Power, enough said !

[HumbleWCGuy]

**** !!!
Power, enough said !

Pro MT against amateur SS.

[Sardinkahnikov]

**** !!!
Power, enough said !

0:21 - Guy in black lost all his dignity. Very humiliating.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pro MT against amateur SS.

Like I said, Power, enough said.

[Frost]

just would like to contribute
recent sanda:
3/19
http://player.youku.com/player.php/s...MDg5ODI0/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/s...MDkyMDIw/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/s...MTA4MjYw/v.swf
3/20
http://player.youku.com/player.php/s...MzI1MjE2/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/s...MzI2OTI0/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/s...MzM0MzI4/v.swf
3/21
http://player.youku.com/player.php/s...NTYyMDMy/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/s...NTY1NTI4/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/s...NTcwMjA4/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/s...NTc1NDg0/v.swf

The only guy I had heard of was Nonsai, the guy that got KOed the first day and fought again 2 days later (paycheck much?); back in January he out-pointed Dzhabar from Contender Asia, he also had a fight in canada the week before, and April 10th he's fighting again in the netherlands. Gotta stink to be kicking a guy's azz THAT bad for THAT long and get caught by a right hand outta NOWHERE. At least his second fight went the distance. Fighter Wehad fought 3 times in 3 days, winning the first by decision. Karuehard looked like he dislocated his shoulder, it was an injury that would probably otherwise been called a "no contest".

san da fighters fighting internationally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se7ljLqh_wU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKd-mB2vIdI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQILMQBeI7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-yEev5tbts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9nQmr4Gw1o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQevUhApRKQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpIi-FHqaH0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLB3MUxJcHE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8ndrVscUDo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW_ABFpfLlE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY1ydTZJ_RE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7zKz...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-irmsV2JfI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKnEf...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZjsUZsJVFw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIKHpPeaws0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljb7ZScuYRE

The fact of the matter is that their record outside of China and in non-sanda-rules fights is not very good.
Shootboxing has very comparable rules to sanshou, it is an international competition (so no country vs country bs) yet there has never been a S-Cup champion. The best China has ever done is runner up.
They don't do all that well in K-1 or full muay thai rules.

I'm not going to say the Chinese fighters are cr@p, coz they're not.
They can be pretty good.

I'm just tired of this "us vs them" superiority cr@p.
They've won enough times to prove their style is viable full contact.
They've lost enough times to show that they ain't invincible.
Any attempt at furthering the argument that somehow sanda is magically superior to muay thai, dutch kickboxing, japanese kickboxing, shootboxing, draka, mma, etc etc etc is just silly and buying into propaganda.
At this point, if a fighter's better than his opponent, he'll win, if not, he'll lose.

The problems most muay thai folks have with sanda is with chinese rules & judging.
Sometimes the fighters agree to the handicap & just go for a payday; other times, rules get changed on the spot and really screw over the Thais.
The fact that Chinese can score off of any throw (apparently even sacrifice throws), and the Thai fighters can't knee the Chinese fighters in the face tends to make most muay thai fans completely disregard those competitions. I mean when the ref gives the Chinese fighter an extra 5 seconds of clinch time so he can complete a throw, and as soon as the Thai fighter has the chinese fighter in bad position to start eating knees the ref jumps in to break it up, you can't really take that kind of competition seriously.

EDIT: After a certain point the Chinese have just made themselves look bad. You can say Thailand does it too, but it's not like a foreigner has never won in Thailand (there have been foreign stadium champions going way back). Thailand is certainly not known for the complete snow jobs, like the Chinese. It's almost like every fight's to the level of K1-max protecting Masato.

Thanks for showing up pork I knew you had spent a lot of time looking at these fights and appreciate your fair-minded analysis of the situation

[Pork Chop]

Thanks for showing up pork I knew you had spent a lot of time looking at these fights and appreciate your fair-minded analysis of the situation

just found out about this new kung fu king promotion that china's doing (thanks tunks).
looks a lot more legit and should really increase the state of the game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7oMKnFcnp0