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Thread: Is San Shou the Appropriate Full-contact Expression for Kung Fu?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    You lose all sense of style in full-contact events... once you've been at it awhile. Just throw with what works for you. No style- just rules that you have to follow. You should modify your training based on those rules. No sense getting hung up on "this is sanda, that isn't". Hit hard, try to make the other guy miss, and throw them down when you can.

    Heck- want to really peave people off? Develop a strategy to win by forcing your opponent out of the ring. Don't even punch or throw, just shove.

    (you know you can do that)
    id rofl till i died if i saw two guys just shove each other an entire match lol
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kfson View Post
    Is it just me or are these 5 vids very frustration to watch, and why?
    Is that because your computer (such as Apple) can only handle AVI files and not WMV file? Does anybody else have this problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
    id rofl till i died if i saw two guys just shove each other an entire match lol
    Is that what Taiji pushing hands for?

    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    You lose all sense of style in full-contact events.
    You are right.

    - A wrestler's double legs is no different from a SC guy's double legs.
    - A prey mantis guy's hook punch is no different from a boxer's hook punch.
    - A long fist guy's round house kick is no different from a MT guy's round house kick.

    There is only effective way of doing thing. If a MT round house kick can generate more power than a long fist round house kick, it's not because there are style difference but because the long fist guy does not do it right.

    When we look at MA from this angle, the style will have little meaning.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-19-2010 at 05:51 PM.

  3. #18
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    If your gong fu is "shuai deficient" then it really isn't gong fu, is it?

    I don't have any problem with American schools using kickboxing and judo in their sanda programs. Afterall, most gong fu practitioners of the past 50 years have been passing up wrestling tournaments and full-contact kickboxing matches and instead donning silk pajamas, focusing only on taolu, and bringing shame upon Chinese martial traditions. These schools obviously have to get techniques that work from another art.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    If your gong fu is "shuai deficient" then it really isn't gong fu, is it?
    You must have a low standard for what is an acceptable level of throwing skill.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    You must have a low standard for what is an acceptable level of throwing skill.


    No....perhaps my standard for what is acceptable gong fu is too high.

    Also, maybe I'm not aquainted with many styles of gong fu....are there honestly styles of Chinese martial arts that don't have a signficant grappling or throwing component in them?

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    I don't have any problem with American schools using kickboxing and judo in their sanda programs. Afterall, most gong fu practitioners of the past 50 years have been passing up wrestling tournaments and full-contact kickboxing matches and instead donning silk pajamas, focusing only on taolu, and bringing shame upon Chinese martial traditions. These schools obviously have to get techniques that work from another art.
    This is by far the most retardedly racist, xenophobic, and ethnocentrically wrong comment I've read in so long...

    Oh wait... I just read where you're posting from. The land of lost recent history.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post


    No....perhaps my standard for what is acceptable gong fu is too high.

    Also, maybe I'm not aquainted with many styles of gong fu....are there honestly styles of Chinese martial arts that don't have a signficant grappling or throwing component in them?
    unlikely. Throws just aren't a huge part of the art. There is a world of difference between GF and something like Judo or Shui Jaio.

  8. #23
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    There is a world of difference between GF and something like Judo or Shui Jaio.
    Agree! The training priority are difference here. When you train SC, you first learn the application, you then learn how to enhance it by using the solo drill and equipment training. This is different from the traditional CMA form first and application later approach. Also when you learn SC, you 1st train the offense moves, you then train the defense moves, after that you start to learn how to use one move to set up another move (combo). If the CMA striking art can also use this approach (instead of solo form after solo form), the same result can be achieved as well.

    In other words, if CMA striking art can use the 2 men drill approach (application) instead of the solo form training approach (performance), the combat result will be much more noticeable.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-20-2010 at 12:11 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    unlikely. Throws just aren't a huge part of the art. There is a world of difference between GF and something like Judo or Shui Jaio.
    Then maybe I have trained the super-secret gong fu with the throws in it.

    And last time I checked, Shuai Jiao was gong fu.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    This is by far the most retardedly racist, xenophobic, and ethnocentrically wrong comment I've read in so long...

    Oh wait... I just read where you're posting from. The land of lost recent history.
    You just threw down a lot of loaded words there. Care to explain in more detail?

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    Then maybe I have trained the super-secret gong fu with the throws in it.
    [/QUOTE]

    I think that you are just way over estimating your understanding of throws in a San Shou match. Let's be realistic. how many throws do you know and how often do you train them? If your answer is anything other than, "I know about 50 throws/takedowns and I train them at least once per week," you should recant about knowing your trows. Great takedown ability is built upon mastery of usually of 5 throws, at most, with multiple variations and ability to use about 50 or so others.
    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    And last time I checked, Shuai Jiao was gong fu.
    It is an unusual style that falls outside the general trend.

  12. #27
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    WCGuy,
    I think you are missing my point and that we will actually agree on most things. I train Sanda at the sports university here in Wuhan. We train throws, entries, and leg catches specifically at least twice a week, on top of the daily sparring practice. I have a Judo and kickboxing background from when I lived in Japan. So, yeah, I know about 40 throws (but I can only do about 3 with ease)

    My point was that, traditionally, throws and takedowns were the bread and butter of many Chinese martial arts. I just noticed the WC in your name probably stands for Wing Chun...I have no experience with it so I apologize for generalizing. My primary experience with traditional Chinese gongfu is mostly Chen taijiquan and Songshan Shaolinquan, along with an introduction to Mantis. In both the taijiquan and shaolinquan, the majority of the moves in the taolu deal with stand-up grappling. And yet....the majority of traditional gongfu schools don't really practice this. This is why I said "Shuai deficient" gongfu isn't really a complete gongfu. (And I mean it in a way as a friendly challenge to other gongfu players to make their practice more meaningful)

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    the majority of the moves in the taolu deal with stand-up grappling. And yet....the majority of traditional gongfu schools don't really practice this.
    The traditional taolu may contain less than 5% of the throwing skill. The throwing skill can be divided into 2 categories, the "散手跤Sanshou throws" (face to face type of throws) and "接体跤body contact throws" (back touch chest type of throws). As far as I know, the "接体跤body contact throws" such as hip throw, leg block, leg lift, leg twist, pulling throw, bowing throw, embracing throw, ... are complete missing from the taolu. Even in the "散手跤Sanshou throws" category, the spring, inner hook, outer hook, sharpening, knee seize, leg seize, ... are also missing in taolu. Throws that exist in some taolu are foot sweep, front cut, shoulder strike, firemen's carry, body control throw, ... which are about 5% of the total throws. There are about 400 major throws. The taolu may contain no more than 20 throws (20/400 = 5%).
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-20-2010 at 09:18 PM.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post

    As far as I know, the "接体跤body contact throws" such as hip throw, leg block, leg lift, leg twist, pulling throw, bowing throw, embracing throw, ... are complete missing from the taolu.
    This is NOT correct.
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  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    You just threw down a lot of loaded words there. Care to explain in more detail?
    Actually I'm probably more in agreement with you and the original post than I thought...

    Basically San Shou as a competitive sport has only been around since 1979. It was a response by the China National Sports Committee to kung fu being perceived as nothing but a type of acrobatics because practitioners couldn't fight.

    But- here's what's missing from it's official history... they didn't have a solid martial kung fu base to build san shou on (because they were still recovering from the cultural revolution)- so what we call san shou borrowed heavily from non Chinese martial arts in it's early development. We're talking western boxing, western wrestling, Judo, and thai boxing. It did become more Chinese flavored with time, but the basic throws and strikes that are the standardized curriculem of San Shou --- who's to say where they came from or what they originally were.

    As an example... You watch a match - you see jabs which never were big in Asian martial arts (Benny the Jet built his success in Thailand and Japan around introducing the jab to those venues... he was the first successful American in the Southeastern Asian full contact MA world... now find me a gym in Asia that doesn't show a jab).

    But- in the end, I'll agree with you that San Shou might not be the best way to showcase kung fu as a fighting art. You should read the discussion on lei tai rules for mantis on the mantis forum.

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