Is San Shou the Appropriate Full-contact Expression for Kung Fu?

[MightyB]

Agree! The training priority are difference here. When you train SC, you first learn the application, you then learn how to enhance it by using the solo drill and equipment training. This is different from the traditional CMA form first and application later approach. Also when you learn SC, you 1st train the offense moves, you then train the defense moves, after that you start to learn how to use one move to set up another move (combo). If the CMA striking art can also use this approach (instead of solo form after solo form), the same result can be achieved as well.

In other words, if CMA striking art can use the 2 men drill approach (application) instead of the solo form training approach (performance), the combat result will be much more noticeable.

Love this- this is so true.

[B.Tunks]

MB.

Muay Thai elements were not introduced until much later. Originally, non-Chinese kicking techniques that were imported came via Karate and TKD. You are correct that Western Boxing techniques and training methods were integrated right from the start. One of my coaches was a committee member of one of the original councils for the development of modern sanda and was responsible for developing a training program for the integration of Western boxing in the Shandong team. The throws really did largely come from shuaijiao though, and any true judo influence more likely came via sambo methods. In fact more technique was lifted from freestyle wrestling. To complicate things, the story was slightly different in each province- e.g Shandong's development was different to that of Zhejiang and Guangzhou (Guangzhou Province team being one of the earliest to introduce Thai kicking methods). I'm not saying sanda didn't import significantly, but of the major indigenous components shuaijiao was the largest. Of course how much shuaijiao had previously been cross-pollinated with judo (much earlier than the development of sanda) is another matter.

Of course there is propaganda around the founding and development of sanda/sanshou, but the fact remains that although the cultural revolution was a terrible event, martial development was not completely completely stopped or retarded during that period. It was not simply a case of the cultural revolution leaving China's fighting styles without a 'solid martial base', rather that compared to countries such as Japan, Thailand and most of the West, there had never been a unified and well developed system of competitive fighting in place. Pre-Communist China had similar issues with deficiencies in full-contact competition (largely due to style disparity, lack of training methodology etc) and had begun to incorporate the hand skills of Western Boxing before the turn of the century. In fact the majority of Chinese systems didn't even target the head much until the outside influence of Western boxing. If you have a look at the development of full-contact competitive fighting in Hong Kong and SE Asia, you can see that it went through the exact same process in terms of incorporating Western Boxing, Japanese and Thai styles. They did this much earlier and and more effectively, sending coaches and athletes to Thailand and Japan even in the 70's. Why was this? Was it because the gongfu of Hong Kong was destroyed in a cultural revolution? They encountered the same problems as the PRC when trying to make Chinese boxing methods work in the ring with boxing gloves and with a generic rule set that would allow fighters from any style to compete.

Maybe the problem was that CMA were never developed with competitive fighting in mind and therefore did not translate well to the ring? Also the massive amount of diversity in CMA meant that it had always been difficult to standardise and set milestones/yardsticks in place. It is interesting to note that the Guomindang/KMT were the original major force in the development of standardised CMA (both fighting and forms) and the communists drew heavily on their work. So yes, although there is a lot of garbage told around the founding and growth of sanda, things are not as simple as they may seem. Of course there are those that would like the romantic view that sanda is 100% indigenous Chinese to continue, but there is almost no one involved in the sport these days that doesn't know and publicly acknowledge that it has heavily incorporated foreign technique and training methods. It is a bit hard to hide, as PRC teams (particularly the professional and military teams) have been importing Thai coaches and going to Thailand to train since the 90's.

SS/SD may not be the best venue to showcase CMA but apart from brawling in the street (which in my opinion and that of every teacher I've had, is what it's really for), but it's better than nothing. Personally though, the open-finger gloved versions of it are even better.

BT

[B.Tunks]

Off topic but - The 5th San Shou Vs Tai Boxing tournament was held in Chongqing, from 19-20 of March. China apparently won 4:2, with three Thai boxers KO'd. This Thai team was meant to be a good one too. I haven't seen the bouts yet but there's apparently already a few clips up on the net (at least one on youtube).

BT

[HumbleWCGuy]

Off topic but - The 5th San Shou Vs Tai Boxing tournament was held in Chongqing, from 19-20 of March. China apparently won 4:2, with three Thai boxers KO'd. This Thai team was meant to be a good one too. I haven't seen the bouts yet but there's apparently already a few clips up on the net (at least one on youtube).

BT

That's not surprizing. Thai boxing is inferior to San Shao. From a striking perspective, kiung fu contains much more knowledge than MT. Second, those who are trained to throw typically have better plumb/clinch skills.

[HumbleWCGuy]

MB.

Muay Thai elements were not introduced until much later. Originally, non-Chinese kicking techniques that were imported came via Karate and TKD.

BT

There honestly isn't that much in MT that kung fu fighters don't already possess. If MT fighters were smart, they would start watching san shao.

The only thing that gives MT an edge in the U.S. is that they are more organized as a full-contact sport.

[lkfmdc]

There is a pile of mis-information in this thread at this point.

Nothing in China is free of politics and agendas, sanshou/san da history is no exception

The roots of sanshou lie in the 1920's in attempts to modernize China and in the movement to create a modern political party. Sun Yat-Sen imported Soviet advisors to help organize the party and set up the military academy in the south. The original san shou program dates from this (ie approx 1926)

OF COURSE, the current communist government would never want you to know this

NOR, it should be noted, did the Deng government want to give much credit to Mao. Thus the often cited "1979" date....

The fact remains that the first "official" public book called "sanshou" was published in China in 1956

While the program began in the 1920's it did not really take a good shape until the 30's and the war with Japan. Instead of rival schools/men pai you had fellow Chinese battling a common foreign enemy. The environment was much more open and more TCMA fighters shared their valued material

The early Sanshou material largely show fighting WITHOUT GLOVES, often CHin Na, Shuai Jiao with jackets, and weapons work...

Neither the communists nor the cultural revolution killed it, it just STAYED INSIDE THE MILITARY.

In the military, originally an open finger kind of bag glove (similar to the current MMA gloves) was used....

In the late 70's and early 80's they experiemented with making a public sport out of San Shou. Boxing gloves were then implemented as the standard

By the time they were ready to take teh sport "public" internationally (1991) they removed knees to make it different than Muay Thai

[B.Tunks]

All good points, thanks. To clarify, the ss/sd I am generally referring to is the boxing glove wearing modern sport variety that grew out of military sanda. I would argue though that the older forms of sanda do not very closely resemble the modern variety.

Out of interest, the open finger gloves were still used in chuantong sanda comps in Shandong and Henan into the 90's.


HWCG

I don't know about the superiority of SS over MT. If that was the case, why did the Chinese go to the Thais for leg technique and later in pro-sanda for knees? SS clinching is not better than MT either. SS has a few unique skills that stand out in comparison, including the lead leg treading/side kick and throws (as far as takedowns MT also has highly developed skills).

[lkfmdc]

Again, "truth" is often obscured by nationalistic feeling and / or "agendas"

TCMA had been well exposed to both Western Boxing and Japanese Judo by the 1920's and there are strong influences of these in early and modern Sanshou/San da....

Today, you have two "modern" forms active in China. In the sports colleges you see a strong obession with purely sport, often point based, the sort of look to win by points at the expense of power (and combat effectiveness) style that many people find annoying (myself included)

The other style is rooted closer to original military style, was evident in pro matches and now is leaning towards the modern Chinese MMA movement

[HumbleWCGuy]

All good points, thanks. To clarify, the ss/sd I am generally referring to is the boxing glove wearing modern sport variety that grew out of military sanda. I would argue though that the older forms of sanda do not very closely resemble the modern variety.

Out of interest, the open finger gloves were still used in chuantong sanda comps in Shandong and Henan into the 90's.


HWCG

I don't know about the superiority of SS over MT. If that was the case, why did the Chinese go to the Thais for leg technique and later in pro-sanda for knees? SS clinching is not better than MT either. SS has a few unique skills that stand out in comparison, including the lead leg treading/side kick and throws (as far as takedowns MT also has highly developed skills).

The fact that SS fighters consistently beat up MT fighters doesn't alter your opinion?

[pazman]

The fact that SS fighters consistently beat up MT fighters doesn't alter your opinion?

What country does this happen in?

If you're thinking of the Thailand MT and China SS match-ups here in China, you can forget most of those. Hosting a fighting event where foreigners have the possibility of outshining the Chinese fighters is strongly frowned upon by the authorities in light of nationalist sentiment. Which is a shame...it doesn't do any good for the throngs of good-hearted and talented athletes here.

The people at my gym who come from a MT background outshine their pure-trained SS teammates when it comes to kicking skill.

[Frost]

The fact that SS fighters consistently beat up MT fighters doesn't alter your opinion?

really got any evidence of this?

from what i have seen the fights in china usually go to the chinese via some strange reffing decisions (not surprising seeing as its a national sport and the chinese govenment do not want to lose face, and the thais rarily send over the best fighters) fights in thailand are fairly even as fair as i can see with slightly more wins going to the thais.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Right so the refs are fair in Thailand? Listen to yourselves. If MT looses, it was fixed. If MT wins it was a fair competition. Come on guys.

At worst SS fighters hold their own in MT rules and Destroy MTs by SS rules.

[Frost]

pork chop has written posts on here that were very lenghty and informative about how the rules are changed etc on a whim by the judges in china as the fights take place, i found it very interesting reading, i have no real view either may i like watching both arts and think to make it really fair they should fight each other under MMA rules

[HumbleWCGuy]

pork chop has written posts on here that were very lenghty and informative about how the rules are changed etc on a whim by the judges in china as the fights take place, i found it very interesting reading, i have no real view either may i like watching both arts and think to make it really fair they should fight each other under MMA rules

You are going to get some home cooking almost anywhere. If MT is dominant as people suggest then it should prevail.

[SPJ]

I tried this on the Wing Chun board with no response so...


Let me say first that really like good San Shou. I think that it is the highest expression of kickboxing.

However, after attending the Arnold Classic and seeing a lot of smoker quality San Shou, I was disturbed. It was mostly guys with marginal kung fu experience attempting marry kung fu and high school wrestling. All the while they were violating principles of solid kickboxing, plumbing/standing grappling, and judo-style throwing.

It just seems to me that American Kung Fu does not have a strong infrastructure for San Shou in the North America. Should we stick with it and try to mold our full-contact fighters into, "kickboxing judoka," or would we be better served by creating a different full-contact expression of kung fu?

san shou is only one of the format/venues with rules.

you may always have your own rules to contest your skills with other

but safety has to be in place.

you want to test your skills but not really hurting your sparring friends.

I had more than fair share of eating the dirts/dusts while shuai jiao with friends.

but we all know when to stop or tap out

we all avoid dangerous or not safe techniques

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other than that have fun