Qigong and/Vs Modern Strength training

[sanjuro_ronin]

As I was reading a book yesterday about Qigong, I noticed a few misconceptions there about modern/conventional Strength training ( from here on to be refered to as ST).
The author mentioned that tensing during External Qigong would cause the muscles to enlarge and that is bad because it stagnates Chi and makes a person to heavy and too slow.
Ok, I know that, by this time now, we have dispelled the myth of ST makes a person slow.
ST is NOT bodybuilding, bodybuilding is A method of ST a method designed not so much to build strength ( strength is a by product) but to build the body (Hypertrophy).
Sprinters do ST, are they slow?
Gynmast do ST, are they slow?
Every explosive athlete does ST, are they slow?
No on all accounts.
So, lets forget that part for now.
The issue that increased muscle mass makes one slow is quite incorrect.
Again, look at sprinters.
Nor does ST make one less flexible, look at gymnasts and on a more extreme note, the study was done years ago in which they measured the flexibility of olympic athletes and, aside from gymnasts, the most flexible were the powerlifters ( olympic lifters).
So, lets repeat for a moment shall we?
ST does NOT make one slow or inflexible and added mass ( which comes from diet far more than ST) does not equal losing speed.
OK?
Good.
Next part.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In regards to "big muscles" and "mass" stagnating chi ( by the way, tensing a muscle during qigong will NOT make the muscle bigger):
This same author pointed put the studies have shown that "chi" can be viewed as the bodies bioeletical field, he noted that studies show that the chi meridian points show a centralization of this bioelectricity.
So, using the authors own view I suggest that "big muscles" stagnating chi makes no sense.
Big muscles are mostly water, all muscles are mostly water and water is VERY conductive.
The more water you have in your body, the more freely electricity or bioelectricity passes through it.

He also mentions the other misconception that, if you stop exercising, your muscles will turn into fat.
Muscles don't turn into ANYTHING other than what they are, they may becomes smaller ( or bigger) but they do NOT turn into fat.

As I read this book though, putting these glaring misconceptions aside, I did wonder about qigong VS ST in regards to not just MA performace, but health in general.

Let us explore that.

[Dale Dugas]

As my teacher says: " There is nothing wrong with being strong."

Funny that many famous teachers did all manner of both strength training as well as qi gong as part of the whole body training.

Anyone who says all you have to do is sit down and meditate is not thinking with their total amount of brain power.

You work with long heavy weapons as we do in Baguazhang, you are strength training.

You put on a weight vest and walk circles or linear patterns, you are strength training.

anyone on this board think you do not have to ST?

I can see where people feel they do not have to train Qi Gong, but lets see about the ST.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the past, nothing was more crucial than aerobic capacity.
That has changed considerably over the last few decades.
Most of us need anerobic capcity more than aerobic ( we will run to the BUS more times than we will run to work because we missed the bus) and we also need strength on a routnine basis, everything we do involves strength.
Picking up the kids, getting out of bed or a chair, lifting something, pushing or pulling something, groceries, etc, etc.
Everything needs strength, but there is more to that too.
Our bones NEED load bearing exercises to get stronger, especially women.

Almost all ST is summed up by this:
Progressive resistence training

This means that we, progressively, increase the amount of weight/resistence on a given exercise so as to make your muscles adapt to the extra work load, making them stronger.
The strength can be "pure" strength ( the ability to lift something heavy) or endurance strength ( the ability to life something for a prolonged period of time)

Again, mass increase is based more on diet than on anything else ( you get bigger by getting bigger ie: eating more).

The issue is that load bearing exercises strengthen our bones too, as our body adaptst to the progressive loads we put on it, the muscles, tendons and bones get stronger and they do this progressively and verifiably.

[Dale Dugas]

spot on as always brother!

Doing both ST and QG will make you healthier, happier and stronger than someone who does not.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now, certain qigong methods do indeed strengthen our bones, pols standing is a load bearing exercise and as such, our bones will get stronger,a s will our muscles, by doing it.
Obviously doing stance work does the same thing.
The degree is less and the time frame is more obviously but there are some advantages to them - no need for equipment, can be done anywhere, less intimidating for some than weight training, etc.
The Iron wire from Hung kuen / gar, is another example a Qigong exercise with many health benefits and one that also does increase our strength and strengthen our bones.
Now, those qigong exercises mentioned don't do much for anerobic conditoning obviously and, to be truthful, I don't now of any qigong that does work anaerobic conditioning.
And in terms of progressive resistence, standing qigong as its limits.
The Iron wire's strength developing potential is stricktly dependent on HOW one does the IW and to the degree of isokinetic tension one uses.

Which does bring us back to the issue of tension in the muscles and how this is viewed in terms of Qigong.

[sanjuro_ronin]

spot on as always brother!

Doing both ST and QG will make you healthier, happier and stronger than someone who does not.

Yeah, common sense, I know, but these misconceptions I noted are still being thrown around there, as I am sure you knwo too.
The author of the book I was reading was Yang Jwing Ming.

[Dale Dugas]

you cannot get rid of tension fully in any muscles during movement.

We will always have tension in the system if we are upright and moving.

More so if you are lifting, moving, pushing anything that is heavy.

what I try to instill in my students is the fact that you want to try and have the least amount of tension in the system without being a puddle of human on the floor.

Learn to relax or Sung as its termed in TCMA, and have the goldlilocks theory of tension which is just enough/just right to maintain balance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

you cannot get rid of tension fully in any muscles during movement.

We will always have tension in the system if we are upright and moving.

More so if you are lifting, moving, pushing anything that is heavy.

what I try to instill in my students is the fact that you want to try and have the least amount of tension in the system without being a puddle of human on the floor.

Learn to relax or Sung as its termed in TCMA, and have the goldlilocks theory of tension which is just enough/just right to maintain balance.

Indeed, but what are we developing by doing that?
It's not strength though, it's relaxation and proper alignment.
Yes?

[Dale Dugas]

not only alignment but proper use of the body/muscles/structure so that you are using the entire body. Whole Body usage, whole body power.

Hence doing things slow until the body can create an actual neuron for that movement, stance, etc and you can then replicate it over and over when needed.

ST is to train the external systems and create the machine, QG is then the internal system to help get the person to this state where they can use it more efficiently and with less waste.

[sanjuro_ronin]

not only alignment but proper use of the body/muscles/structure so that you are using the entire body. Whole Body usage, whole body power.

Hence doing things slow until the body can create an actual neuron for that movement, stance, etc and you can then replicate it over and over when needed.

ST is to train the external systems and create the machine, QG is then the internal system to help get the person to this state where they can use it more efficiently and with less waste.

And that definition I, and probably everyone else, is totally fine with.
But I have heard claims that Qigong strengthens the body COMPARABLY ( if not better) than ST, that it strengthens the muscles and tendons and bones "just as well if not better".

Lets look at the muscle, the only way it is strengthen is by contraction, either concentric ( shortening ie: lifting), eccentric ( lengthening ie:lowering) or isometrically ( stationary tension at a given point).
All those involve tension of some sort and the greater the effort the greater the tension the greater to strengthen being used and the greater the muscle involvement.
Tension being the key.
Tension can be prolonged or explosive, but it is always there.

The tendons ( what attaches the muscle to the bone) are strengthen during these very same processes and can't be strenthened any other way.

As for bones, they adapt to the stress put on them, from every day stress, to ballistic stress to stationary stress, they grow stronger by getting denser to deal with the increased demands put on them, but you do have to increase the demand put on them.

[CFT]

anyone on this board think you do not have to ST?

I'm sure there are a few, one in particular springs to mind. I'm sure you know who (not YouKnowWho).

[Dale Dugas]

please do not bring up anyone who is either subhuman or net ghosts.

they have no place here nor anyone for that matter.

[SAAMAG]

Ok, I know that, by this time now, we have dispelled the myth of ST makes a person slow.

Having larger muscles doesn't make someone slow. This is obvious in many examples. That said, it is true that having a larger mass requires that someone have the power to move that mass. If they do not have sufficient power, than they will be slower. This is usally indicitive of a "big guy" who DOESN'T have the muscle or isn't in shape to move his greater mass.

The other point I think is that if one flexes during any movement -- they will do that movement slower and with less power. E.G. if you punch and flex through the entire motion, your punch will be slow and weak. Perhaps that's what the author is trying to say?!

In regards to "big muscles" and "mass" stagnating chi ( by the way, tensing a muscle during qigong will NOT make the muscle bigger):

Here's an excerpt of a quick explanation on medicinenet.com:

What makes your muscles look bigger when you flex them, when you "make a muscle" with your biceps, for example?

Muscle cells contain long strands of protein lying next to each other. When you want your muscles to move, your brain signals your nerves to stimulate them. A chemical reaction in your muscles follows, causing the long strands of protein to slide toward and over each other, shortening the length of your muscle cells. When you "make a muscle" and you see your muscle bunch up and bulge, you are actually watching it shorten as the protein strands slide over each other.

When you do challenging muscle-building exercises on a regular basis, the bundles of protein strands inside your muscle cells grow bigger. And that's how your muscles get bigger. It's just that simple.

This same author pointed put the studies have shown that "chi" can be viewed as the bodies bioeletical field, he noted that studies show that the chi meridian points show a centralization of this bioelectricity.
So, using the authors own view I suggest that "big muscles" stagnating chi makes no sense.
Big muscles are mostly water, all muscles are mostly water and water is VERY conductive.
The more water you have in your body, the more freely electricity or bioelectricity passes through it.

Electricity flows through water. Simple and correct. But I think perhaps the author's descriptor may not be spot on. No one knows what the hell chi is. Even people that practice chi gung. That have an idea...a theory on what is it...but they do not know. So some people try to give a scientific descriptor to it, like "kinetic energy", or "bioelectric energy", or more towards the literal translation "air".

Practicing chi gung helps one to find their mental center, their state of no-mind. From there they can better learn to use the mind to direct and enchance to body. For example directing the body to do something while being oblivious to the obstacle can increase the body's ability to achieve that end amidst adversity. I.E. if I'm trying to push my arm towards something, and you're trying to stop it, a combination of proper structure/rooting and intent can prove successful where just trying to muscle through it would not be.

The way it was explained to me was that the mind naturally works from imagery, the whole idea of words being internal chatter was the byproduct of a learned mechanism -- like speech and writing. We internalize our outward communication and have forgotten the natural way that our mind works. So meditation and imagery helps in many ways. It's seen in western mediicine as well where people will get surgeries and dental work by going in deep meditation states, or where people will use imagery to help a wound heal in a decreased timeframe (nothing extraordinary mind you--just faster than not concentrating on it).

He also mentions the other misconception that, if you stop exercising, your muscles will turn into fat.
Muscles don't turn into ANYTHING other than what they are, they may becomes smaller ( or bigger) but they do NOT turn into fat.

Yea...that's wrong in a literal sense. I think though that's more a figure of speech that's gotten passed down....if you continue to eat like you're bodybuilding, and don't bodybuild, you're going to get fat. The muscle doesn't turn into fat, but your body will no longer buiild muscle but will accumulate fat.

.....

To your last point...from a health perspective, I think chi gung is very beneficial--based merely on my own experiences and those experiences of the many people that practice tai chi on a daily basis. Like Yoga and similar exercises, meditation and breathing exercises combined with non-impacting movements that promote felxibility and strength would always be good for you.

It promotes mental health, decreases stress levels, and also stands to improve body conditioning through its varied methods whether that be in stances and positions, or moving stances.

[dirtyrat]

Yang, Jwing-Ming's books are not easy to understand at times. I feel that a lot of his books could be condensed quite a bit by taking out the filler material.

I don't think he's discouraging ST. I do believe he thinks ST in the case of a bodybuilder is counterproductive for martial artists. In one of his Chin Na books, he advocates ST that builds both speed and strength at the same time.

With qigong, I believe the intent/goal is the most important factor. A lot of people seem to think that ST is about building large muscles. Strength in some sense is relative. The strength of a Bodybuilder is different from that of a gymnast for example.